The one thing that really gets to me is that after so much work by all races to try to make this world colour blind, an African American would even think of throwing out a racial remark like that. You're kidding right? Someone has tried to make this world color blind? Maybe someone should tell the local athorities that continue to routinely pull over African American athletes and celebrities because of racial profiling. What if you were harrased for no reason other than your skin and then heard, "Oh.......um, sorry Mr. Carter. You're my favorite player. Can I have your autograph?" If Wally has to contend with being the underdog for 3hrs a night then so be it. Vince has the other 21.
Someone needs to tell those kids if they work as hard in school as they do one the court, it'll be 1000 times easier to become a doctor than become a pro athlete.
Been guilty of WHAT behavior. I played many years on all black courts, in the Army and in Houston. I loved it. It was fun. The white court ball bored my by comparison. Just like the white Spades and other card games bored me. Blacks, by stereotype, like a social game. This article is misrepresenting what jawing is all about. If you play in big city pick-up games, DEAL WITH IT. Like Shaq says in the article, "That's just the way it is." Face it. MLB players gave it to blacks for entering their game. How much of that is "hate," versus sport intimidation to gain an edge? Surely in MLB it was more hate versus what I've experienced on all-black courts. This article strikes me as payback by some intimidated white guy on the court, domino table, or card table who can't take it. I've seen people who hate it and take their ball and go home. you pooouuuussssay!!! They say "white boy." It is like a verbal, sporty reparations to test you. Deal with it. It is a test, to see how you deal with it. If it flusters you, you will lose the game that you're playing. Don't be so naive and offended, or you won't last on the court. Race and ethnic-based intimidation comments happen in sports! The beauty of American is you DEAL WITH IT. Blacks deal with this in real life, all the time. I can deal with it in sports!!! Just from an American's point of view; there is no country more mature on facing and dealing with racism like the "melting pot of the world"--the one and only United States. There is nothing more obnoxious to me than a foreigner trying to tell America how to deal with our own racist issues when most other countries just stick their head in the sand and point at the US as the racists. yeah, right. It only happens here.
I am American and proud of it. But I am also bi-cultural and tri-lingual. Heyp, don't be so sure about America's "maturity." Americans have always struck the rest of the world of how naive and arrogant they are. Kinda like brash teenagers. The "melting pot" is a myth. Most Americans I know are mono-cultural and mono-lingual. They see things only from one angle. Hardly even know what the world outside of their social strata looks like. Hey, this is a basketball board. What am I doing here?
In order to say that America does the best job of dealing with racial issues of any country in the world, you would have to know exactly how every other country in the world deals with racial issues. Most of us can't even pass a Jay Leno foreign capitals quiz. And you never hear about the success stories, at home or abroad. What I recall hearing about Australia is that forty years ago minorities simply weren't allowed to be seen. In fact, poor parents in Britain during WW2 were talked into giving up their children for adoption so they could be shipped to Australia to maintain racial purity. Yet now Australia has a large, visible Asian population. They seem to have learned a lot faster than America, which has had large Asian immigration since the 1860s. California still forbade a Asian man to marry a white woman in the 1920s, and you know what happened after Pearl Harbor. As for black vs white, that is clearly something radically different. Prof. Stephen Mintz at the Univ. of Houston has talked in his American history courses about the identifiable features of a caste system, and how the historical role of African-Americans fits this. Caste systems are a lot more durable than simple ethnic hassles, and unfortunately America grew up with one in place, which is why every 50 years we whites declare that the race problem is solved, only to have it blow up in our faces again. The worst thing about a caste system is that it's not a culture divided by inequality, but one nation imposed on top of another by victory (India's was created by each new conqueror imposing himself atop his predecessors). Basically, Europe beat Africa piecemeal, and the slaves were POWs sent to make profits in America. People have to win at something in order to endure life, so each caste protects the things it's "better" at, and that may be hardened into a feature of its distinct culture if it goes on long enough. The best basketball players used to be Jewish and Irish, but then they got better pay and jobs and got out of the inner city. Blacks, unfortunately, flooded into industrial cities just in time for the postwar termination of half of all manufacturing jobs, the road to affluence for other groups. Out in the suburbs, you're much more likely to grow up playing soccer, baseball, tennis or golf, but I wonder if the claiming of basketball as a feature of black identity has come to overpower the influence of Tiger Woods or the Williams sisters. Remember the '80s, when there was much media concern that young black men spent too much time working on their game instead of diplomas, but then when the crack gangs became an even faster road to wealth, the politicians suddenly promoted street basketball programs as a lesser evil. In the meantime, Yao Ming will be seen by many NBA players as one of the immigrants brought in to punish and obsolete uppity black NBA millionaires and save the game from blackness. Paranoia runs deep, and forums like this, especially in Houston, are the best remedy - so it's worth getting a little serious at times.
You misunderstand me Easy. I'm not saying the Melting Pot is the most aware of other cultures. I'm saying we are more mature and further along in dealing with our racist issues. Slovenian--Genocide Spain--yeah, I love it, but they hate each other England and France--head in the sand Germany--uhhh Australian--does any other culture go there And all those xenophobic Asian countries. America has been dealing with our race issues for many decades. We by no means have it figured out. But we are not supressing it, anymore, or pretending it is just an immigrant thing like England.
They say "white boy." It is like a verbal, sporty reparations to test you. Deal with it. It is a test, to see how you deal with it. If it flusters you, you will lose the game that you're playing. Agreed. And Wally lost. He was more concerned with what he percieved as an insult than playing the game. If Wally had been a 300 lb. Black man then Vince probably would have said that the FATBOY couldn't check him and that he was about to score 40. On another note, all of these NBA guys are products of their environments. Broken homes in some cases, broken spirits in others. I'm a black man from the inner city but I was blessed to have both parents at home with above average jobs(my father's in particular). Sheltered from the streets, still I saw the rise of crack cocaine ruin neighboring families in my neighborhood, drug dealers in big cars with pretty girls, childhood friends buried and a couple make it through to play sports on a professional level. I saw no doctors. Zero. And that's what it boils down to. These kids relate to what they can see, touch, and feel; not what they're told they should relate to. That gives them few options. Athletics, street-life, or a 9 to 5. Not saying that this is proper or ideal, but the grim reality of how the hood lives. And I'm sure that it's difficult to grasp to those that were never there. 1985-1993 in Houston innercities was a mess. Probably still are.
Excellent post, rslay. A great historical overview of some of the racial and caste problems in other parts of the world as well as the United States and how it relates to basketball. I love how you described the caste system in India (which I've seen in action) and it is an accurate portrayal. "...each new conqueror imposing himself atop his predecessors." I loved that quote. Pretty obvious, when you think about it, applies to so many different situations outside of India, and still goes on today in one form or another. I don't know if basketball "has come to overpower the influence of Tiger Woods or the Williams Sisters" as a feature of "black identity", because I think that basketball has had far more influence... and for a much longer time. But it all made for a great read. You should post more often.
Whether that is true or not, You're doing the same thing, making generalizations about a group of people. Hasty ones, i might add, and one that doesn't really hold much water, because that kind of activity is a human act, that we all make such generalizations about a category of objects in order to define the category. And in your case- the americans. Does that mean all the non-americans do not label anybody according to their racial origins, religious denominations or political allegiance at all? Would you accept those americans you just described, for being who they are? ~Radical solipsism~
What's so depressing about it? Perhaps you read "depression" into it? I find it exhilarating that the truth has nothing to do with what we desire, and oftentimes than not, it is the enemy of our wishes. Sometimes... you gotta quote a cliche and say that the truth hurts. Other times you could say that truth is merely a fleeting thing that is a woman, a capricious one at that, and endears herself to only warriors who fights the hardest in order to win her.
Does this entails that you prefer moral objectivism, that morals do exist independently of human beings?
Then that should be good, that certain conditions of living produces great ballplayers, however insignificant the true odds of achieving professional sports really are. I hope you are not implying that their individuality, existential identity had nothing to do with it, that they are mechanical constructs that operates according to social factors. Isn't there any room for awarding you credit for being who you are, or do you mean to imply that you could not have turned out otherwise? Do you believe in credit, merit, or praise/punishment? then you cannot truly believe that a person is a construct of his environment, that he lacks a certain autonomy, or what is the ability to make decisions freely. Either we are robots that responds to pre-arranged stimuli in a predictable patterned behavior, or we are moral agents that dictates our actions according to our environments, and oftentimes than not, directs the world around ourselves. As an existentialist, i subscribe to the belief that Man (every one) is condemned to make choices for all time, every day, every waking moment, every conscious second, and is a self-directed being. While it is true that the environment affects the individual, or exerts certain pressures, it is also true that the individual apprehends the external world and assesses everything on his own free will. ~Radical Subjectivist~
This thread has got a life of it own I feel. I stand by what I said. It just my opinion...you can like it, hate it...do what you want with it. I didnt have time to list what I think every nation of the world is like. Im lucky, I live in a country that is very easy going and one that must be the most culturally diverse in the world. Keep in mind over 95% of Aussies have a background from imigrants who have come here in the last 200 years. Most of those since the 1950's. Race has never been an issue for me and its not a subject that comes up much in Australia. I really dont like getting into this subject on a basketball board. I find its such a heated topic for everyone that you could go around in circles discussing it and not come to any conclusion. Christopher
I never said that. I said foreigners (in a equally stereotypic sense as I hear them say about our country) like to call America immature towards racism when we face it and try to deal with it as much if not more than anywhere in the world. Hatred and fear (xenopobia) towards others based on race, religion, etc happens. People have to talk about it, live with it, deal with it and face it for the world to solve it as a whole. This isn't just my words; these are the words from the voices at the forefront of working on resolving racial problems. I could quote it, name books, direct you to talk radio shows devoted to it, provide organizational charters, community seminars, proactive religious leaders at community levels,,,etc, etc, etc. And this being my favorite subject to expose myself to I feel that history shows we are taking progressive steps. I should have stop on the basketball anecdotes, but the "from an Aussie" perspective .... that stuff just annoyes me, because I consider it close to insulting to the voices on the forefront of this in America. <b>Christopher,</b> Why did you say, "as an Aussie" just to "label" yourself,,,,As an authority? .... what? You don't know the culture of Vince Carter talking smack on a basketball court, so why do you go feel the need to tell us something from some foreign perspective that presumably understands America's "labels." And why is your Aussie "label" worth mentioning in that treatise of yours? I'm just going to dismiss your take 100% about American bball, since you presumably have never played here. Besides, I could have used your same words and said, "as an American, I know how to deal with labels, whether racial, religious, or political." What is inherently wrong with "labels" especially on a playground court where it is often part of the culture of play, just misunderstood when taken out of context, imo. <b>Sir Jackie Chiles,</b> Fair enough. I chose the moment to lash out in stereotypical fashion to an ignorant Aussie comment. My little observation of other countries is stupid, and part of my point. Understand why I like to say that, because I think it is stupid of Europeans to say, basically "we aren't racist; you are." I can't tell you how many visiting students have given me the treatise on America's racial problems. It's like the righteous nosey neighbor telling you how to deal with your kids, because they read it in books. It's like I want to say back, "tell me about your country, because you haven't the foggiest idea what my experience is more than I have of yours."
Now that I have my venting towards an ignorant and rather naive Aussie comment telling us what these "labels" mean to him, let me ask Americans who have played basketball on American playgrounds: Has anyone here actually played basketball on a court where you were being called <b>white boy</b>. I have, and I experienced no hatred behind those words. In fact, when I broke through that on the court by simply showing game, it was the funnest bball of my life. In my experience, it was play....a game....a game of intimidation. I have, however, played basketball with white guys who talk about "black" players (usually not to their face) ... and it is not a game.
I've had all kinds of racially charged misperceptions playing pickup ball. 90% of the time I'm accepted by black guys b/c I can play a little, play hard & share the ball. However I have been frozen out of games by some black guys, pushed out of my turn in waiting between games b/c I'm white, even games from younger wild teens / early twenties kids where I would have been one of the better players. Most the times I've been actually called white boy (or compared to white NBA players) it was playful or even an out right compliment. I never took offense. Then again I would never reference a black guy's racial qualities while playing pick up ball b/c it just wouldn't be accepted. There is a double standard, but I can accept that. 400 years of racist American history will have consequences for years to come. While some of the stereotypes about white players are true to a certain extant, so are some of the negative stereotypes about black players somewhat true.
hehe. I used to say under my breath, quietly: "You can't go left; you can't go left." To get them to try it. Or "When are you going to do something flashy" to get them to try a cross-over or sumpin. To get them to think! I loved it. Playing on all white courts, as a stereotype, they'd be people that hate people to talk, call it "disrespect" and "not part of the game" and all that "sportsmanship" crap. It is part of the game, just not everyone's. I would also use the stereotype to my advantage. Like exposing the ball on my dribble, because they always go for it. You don't need a cross-over if they dismiss you enough to actually try for the steal...hehe. All you need is spin move or behind the back dribble, and you are gone. I hated the being frozen out thing, too. You just had to make your first shot. You make a turnaround J, and you'll get the ball. What I REALLY hated was the guys who would take a face-up jumper and say "Stay Down" as they shot it? Nothing more embarrassing they going for a jumpshot that you have no chance to block, and he says "stay down" and makes it. That made me start practicing jumping.
The remark Vince Carter made wrt Wally Szcerbiak (sp?) was probably nothing more than trash talk. That doesn't excuse it, because there's an obvious asymmetry with that kind of remark: if Wally comes back with something about black guys, it's beyond trash talk and onto another level. And there are no doubt some black players who resent and mistrust white players and consider them not legitimate. But I never figured Vince Carter for one of those, and still don't.
No there isn't an "obvious asymmetry." You "obviously" have never had someone call you "white boy" on the court. Once a black player says that, all bets are off ... except you cannot use the N word, or express "asymmetrical" hatred that doesn't exist in the "white boy" comment in a sport context. You don't understand that "white boy" is just a game (on average), and you are not supposed to let it fluster you. He didn't actually say it to Wally anyhow, but that is beside the point. The point is (and utterly lost on the article writer as well asour German and Aussie contingent in this thread) is that GAME IS ON!!!! As soon as "white boy" is used in a game atmosphere, you are free to say "black boy." Not that I ever did, it is kinda silly, but you are free to play the race cards, once TRUMP IS BROKEN!!!! Obviously, you don't get it. It is a game.
