Doc Rocket sez: "Another thing that's funny is all you WORLD CHAMPION HISTORIANS talk about about the good ol' days, and how there was chemistry then but we traded it...LALALALA BUT, if you remember and think real hard because it came at the beginning of the bandwagon ride for some of you, THE ROCKETS SUCKED AT REBOUNDING!! THEY WERE LAST..or close to it!" I hope this wasn't directed at me. I grew up in Houston. I was born in 1970 so the '94 & '95 teams were hardly my first. And maybe this is one of your now (in)famous cryptic quotes because you point out that the 94/95 squads were terrible rebounders, and then seem to say we should get Nazr or Jackson for rebounding. Are you confused or confusing? Not sure at this point. You misrepresented the moves that Rudy has made in the past ("chemistry is more important than stars") and now have put your fingers in your ears yelling "LALALALA." I agree its amusing but I'm laughing at your post, not with it. ------------------
I'll take depth. Sign Mo get us a defensive presence in the middle. CK ------------------ CC.Net Sim Homepage For stats, standings and team information.
And maybe this is one of your now (in)famous cryptic quotes because you point out that the 94/95 squads were terrible rebounders, and then seem to say we should get Nazr or Jackson for rebounding. Are you confused or confusing? Not sure at this point. He didn't say that we should get them for rebounding... the implication I got was that he wanted them to play the center spot, good rebounders or not. I don't care what power forward we have-- I don't think we can resemble a contender with Kelvin Cato as our starting center. ------------------ EDDIE, EDDIE, EDDIE!!! Draftsource.net-- the premier source for draft info. Profiles, rankings, mock drafts, and more! The Mo Taylor Fan Site
Those comparisons aren't relevant. Those teams had already maxed out their potential. Would you be willing to trade for Barkley, Drexler, or Pippen now in their mid-30s? This team is rebuilding, those teams needed one missing piece to get them to a championship in a 1-2 year window. The comparison doesn't work. The odds are that Mo and Griffin both are more clutch in the playoffs than Webber -- that wouldn't be hard.
The Rockets were 18th in the league in rebounding. Among the teams they were ahead of were teams such as Portland, Dallas, New York, Miami, and Utah. Dallas has their monstrous front line of Bradley-Dirk-Howard, the Miami team had Grant, Mason, and Mourning, Utah had Malone, and Portland had every PF in the league. If we had averaged 1 more rebound per game, we'd be 10th overall in rebounding. If we averaged 3 more rebounds per game, we'd be 4th overall. Oh by the way, the top 2 teams were Golden State and Detroit Don't you think adding Eddie Griffin's rebounding skills at SF will increase our rebounding? The guy was the best college rebounder in the draft. This is a team that had no consistent rebounding from center, and less than stellar rebounding from PF, and mediocre SF rebounding. We're now certain of very good if not great SF rebounding from Griffin. Teams with 4 cornerstones usually don't work. Who would be pushed off the cornerstone if we got Webb? Mobley? Griffin? If it's Griffin, you mine as well have sat pat and taken Richard Anderson or kept Shandon Jefferson, and then traded the other two picks or kept them for depth. If it's Mobley, then the same argument that applies for Mo, applies for Mobley. Why would you pay 6 mill for a 4th option? ------------------ "I think alot of people find Cato's game to be very offensive." -aelliott, comparing the offensive skills of Kelvin Cato and Michael Olowokandi
Sideshow Bob: Selma, I don't know what to say... Selma: Just tell me you like McGyver. Sideshow Bob: Very well, I... I... I can't do it! Even that car chase seemed tacked-on! ------------------ This post contains no smilies, you must judge my seriousness on your own...
I believe the Rockets were last in OFFENSIVE rebounds, not total rebounds. Quite a difference there. My quotes referenced the Falk position prior to leaving the Clippers. Show me an agent who ever looked for less for his 25 year old client two years after wanting the max and I'll show you an overrated player or an agent about to be fired. ------------------ First the Sopranos and now Eddie Griffin... thank you New Jersey!
Great point. I think people are just looking at Taylor's stats, seeing low rebounding numbers, and assuming he won't work because he doesn't fit the prototype vision they have in their head. Vernon Maxwell shot under 40 percent from the field -- a shooting guard that can't shoot? You'll never win with a shooting guard that can't shoot. Kenny Smith had low assist numbers -- how can a point guard not get assists? Good luck winning with a point guard that can't pass. How bout watching the games, and explaining how Taylor doesn't fit the team, rather than throwing out stats that don't match up with your vision of the perfect player.
How about watching the games and telling us how Mo Taylor improves the team's rebounding at all. Allen Iverson shoots 02% from the field, but he shoots a ton of free throws. He burns his man and puts the ball in the ringer or on the cylinder for the put back. This isn't about 'ideal'. It's about a fundamental, traditional assumption: big men should get the ****ing ball. .|.. ..|. [This message has been edited by Achebe (edited June 30, 2001).]
As soon as you tell me how the rebounding numbers are relevant. How does more rebounding automatically translate to more wins for the Rockets? How is that more important than spacing the floor and letting the guards create? How is rebounding, by itself, so important that it overrides every other consideration when trying to improve the team? Why do you need great rebounders at both forward positions? How did bringing Barkley aboard improve the Rockets? He's a great rebounder, right, so what happened? Why are the best rebounding teams also some of the worst teams in the league? And shooting guards should be able to shoot is not a traditional assumption? Point guards should get assists is not a traditional assumption? Or maybe inserting an expletive in there is supposed to make your idea sound better? Great, then let me go back and reread, putting special emphasis on the expletive.....nope, still not convinced.
Because they brick the most shots! This is one thing people fail to realize. Yes, it would be nice if Mo could grab maybe 3-4 more boards per game like most PF's end up doing, but it's not killing this team. Teams that rebound well are often teams that can't hit their shots. Of the top 10 rebounding teams : 1) Detroit 2) Golden State 8) Denver 10) LA Clippers 40% of the best rebounding teams suck! Of the teams making the playoffs this past year : 13) Indiana 14) Phoenix 15) Milwaukee 16) Minnesota 19) Portland 23) Utah 25) New York 27) Miami I've come to the conclusion that rebounding is important, but not as important as many people make it out be. The Rockets' championships teams didn't rebound well because they were spaced out (no, not that kinda spaced out) and were often not in position to rebound unless it was a long rebound. Who cares? They were bombing 3's and playing defense to make up for this. All this being said... come on Mo, just 3 more freakin' rebs/game this year is all I ask... ------------------ "Do you have a patent on stupidity, or do you simply attempt to extend its bounds?" -- Gascon asking NYKRule to talk a little bit about himself...
Huh? Right. So now we're comparing the offensive rebounding of Mo and CWebb, of which there is a difference of exactly 1 in favor of Webber in 11.9 more minutes. Unfortunately, NBA.com doesn't have offensive rebound comparison stats, and I don't feel like going through all the teams so I won't address team offensive rebounding. In terms of 48 minute production, Mo averaged 2.68 offensive rebounds. Webber averaged 3.08. So your rebounding argument now says that because he'll get you less than .5 more offensive boards per 48 minutes, Webber is justified in cost 7 mill more per season. If all you care about is offensive rebounding, Francis averaged .2 less offensive boards than Webber. You want an offensive rebound? Horace Grant is a free agent, and he averaged 2.9 offensive boards compared to Webber's 2.6 in 9.5 less minutes. Among other people that average more offensive boards than Webb that arereadily available through free agency or trade at a fraction of the price are Aaron Williams, Bo Outlaw, Tyrone Hill, and Clarence Weatherspoon. Almost forgot, Griffin averaged 3.13 offensive boards a game in college. Part of the reason Mo signed for an exception was because no teams could sign him outright other than Chicago, who had Brand and Fizer. If you want, I can go find some quotes about how happy Mo was to be going to Toronto on a 5-6 mill contract, before David "Devil" Falk made him hold out for more money. Yes, made him. ------------------ "I think alot of people find Cato's game to be very offensive." -aelliott, comparing the offensive skills of Kelvin Cato and Michael Olowokandi
I was answering someone's contention that the first Rockets championship team was last in rebounding. They were not last in rebounding, they were last in offensive rebounding. Webber is a better rebounder, there is no question about this. Webber averaged 27 points/game (highest of career)last year and averaged 2.6 offensive rebounds (near lowest of career). His rookie year he averaged 17 points/game (lowest of career) and averaged 4.0 offensive rebounds/game (highest of career). There is quite obviously a correlation between his scoring numbers and his offensive rebounding. It's tougher to offensive rebound when you're taking more shots. You think maybe that's why Rodman was always high on the offensive rebounding charts? Mo turned down a 4 year $17 million deal with Toronto. Why? Taxes? He was looking to max out? He risked 1 year $2 million to get the 7 year $60 something million. $62 million is more than $17 million in anyone's math book. ------------------ First the Sopranos and now Eddie Griffin... thank you New Jersey!
perhaps Rudy T. feels like he might loose some flexibility in his line-ups if he brings in Webber. Imagine Webber only getting 32 minutes a game. Would he except that or would he cause problems? The way Rudy T likes to use different line-ups through out the game I could see Webber being left out for long stretches in favor of a smaller more athletic line up. Also I see Webber wanting a long term contract. I think Rudy invisions Griffin being big enough to take on the PF duties full time if he gets just a little bigger. Webber is 6'10" 245lbs and at age 19 Griffin is already 6'9" 220lbs. Its not inconcievable that in a couple of years Eddie could be another inch taller and 15 to 20 lbs heavier. In two or three years I could easily see our starting line up looking like this: Francis Mobley Morris Griffin ? A long term contract with Webber would make that line up hard to materialize. ------------------
Forget offensive rebounds, how about defensive rebounds. We have to work too hard for our points. We need to get some easy hoops in transition. If our guards are both having to crash the boards every time the other team shoots, then we'll never have a runnng game. How about not giving the other team 2nd,3rd or 4th shots? ------------------
<a href=http://tsn.sportingnews.com/nba/teams/raptors/20000810.html>3 years 17.5 million</a> Regardless, how much would you be willing to give Mo? 4 mill? 5 mill? 6 mill? also, aelliott, that's what Griffin helps in most. He's a real deal rebounder. He wasn't the type of guy that was the only rebounder on the team-he played with 6'11'' 250 fellow draft pick Samuel Dalembert, a guy noted for defense and rebounding, and easily outdid him in the shot blocking and rebounding departments. Griffin was considered by most to be BETTER than Darius Miles. Rudy is the type of guy that usually likes immediate results. If they had Griffin #1 on their draft board, wouldn't you think they expect some solid production in his first year? I don't think KG-like rookie numbers are out of the question. ------------------ "I think alot of people find Cato's game to be very offensive." -aelliott, comparing the offensive skills of Kelvin Cato and Michael Olowokandi [This message has been edited by NIKEstrad (edited June 30, 2001).]
In fact, it might be more accurate to say that I agree with almost everything aelliott has ever said on this board .
Great point!?!?!?! "If we'd averaged 3 more a game we'd have...!?!?!" You're not serious, are you!?!? If so, I've got better ones...If we'd won 5 more games we'd have been in the first round of the playoffs, where if we'd have just averaged 1 more point a game than the Lakers, we'd have upset them, and made it to the second round, where if we win just ONE more game in the series we'd have been in the Conference Champions...Just 4 more wins, and we're in the Championship, where all we have to do outscore the Sixers by a total of 4 points over the whole series, and we'd have been World Champions...so let's not mess with this roster, don't wanna upset our chance of repeating... ------------------
Finally! The voice of reason. Defensive rebounds are what gets your fast break going & keeps the other team from shooting until they hit it. I couldn't agree more with you Aelliott. Great post. ------------------
