That was the worst attempt at an analogy ever. Regardless...why are you people so sensitive? Can't you take a joke?
So, let me get this right. If Iraq somehow invaded America and killed several people at a wedding, you wouldn't mind much, as it's just part of war, right? Give us a break, T_J, you had to make this political and somehow skew it to bash liberals. Your act is getting old.
In Vietnam there were over 4 million Vietnamese civilians killed (North and South). On a yearly basis, that is still around 40 times what we are seeing in Iraq. I would say that is certainly evidence of an attempt to limit civilian casualties. As to the original point of this thread. There were admittedly 4 terrorists killed in the action, and all of the statements by Israel are that they did not fire into the crowd. I disagree with them firing at a nearby building to disperse a demonstration and I think people should be allowed to peacably assemble (assuming the demonstration was not violent), and I think they can get a better ratio of terrorists to civilians, but in many ways this is the nature of a war against guerilla fighters, they use civilians as cover in more ways than one so you end up with high numbers of civilian casualties.
There's a video on the BBC. There is one visible explosion in the *middle* of a street filled with people, then the camera man starts running, is jostled by people.
A warzone is probably not the smartestplace to send your children out to "peacefully protest." Israel is conducting raids on the tunnels linking Gaza and Egypt that terrorists smuggle weapons through. This crowd was there to prevent them from doing that. Nevertheless what happened to the crowd wasn't intentional, as the tank that fired the rounds that caused the damage had already done so to the abandoned building without any explosions or harm to the people, which lends credibility that it could have hit a Palestenian bomb in the building. In any case the Israelis didn't fire into a crowd. It wasn't a massacre, it was an accident. They hit an abandoned building to try and disperse a crowd. On the fifth hit to it, there was an explosion that killed and injured many, but not as many as were originally reported. from jpost.com: IDF tank shells kill 8 demonstrators in Rafah By MARGOT DUDKEVITCH AND HERB KEINON Operation Rainbow will continue despite the accidental shelling of a protest march in Rafah in which eight Palestinians, most of them children, were killed and dozens wounded on Wednesday afternoon, Defense Minister Shaul Mofaz said. Mofaz apologized for the deaths of innocent civilians hours after four tank shells and a helicopter missile were fired to deter protesters, apparently led by gunmen, marching toward troops deployed in the Tel e-Sultan neighborhood. Advertisement IDF officers did not rule out the possibility that one of the exploding tank shells, apparently fired at a derelict building, detonated a bomb placed by Palestinians on the road and this could have led to the casualties. "The operation carried out by IDF units and the Shin Bet is a vital one and essential for Israel's security," said Mofaz. "Up until now the forces have operated with good results, but I would like to express sorrow over the harming of Palestinian civilians. The operation will continue with caution and at the same time conclusions will be drawn," he said. "No soldier or no commander gave or received orders to fire directly at civilians," said Chief of General Staff Lt.-Gen. Moshe Ya'alon. The incident was the worst possible scenario for an army whose soldiers have so far moved cautiously and carefully within the densely-populated neighborhood, making every effort to refrain from harming innocent civilians, in the operation that began yesterday. Israeli spokesmen reacted to the incident by expressing regret, but stressing it does not detract from the IDF mission against the arm-smuggling tunnels of Gaza. "We went to Rafah with force, because we want to leave Gaza," said Prime Minister Ariel Sharon's spokesman, Ra'anan Gissin. "But we can't leave Gaza and leave intact its terrorist infrastructure." Sharon did not comment publicly on the incident. Gissin expressed regret for the deaths, but added, "We are dealing with a war zone and are engaged in a legitimate fight against terrorist organizations." "Unfortunately, people get caught in the cross fire, but this does not give the press the right to turn it into a crime scene, and accuse us of all sorts of crimes before all the data is available," Gissin said. Government officials expressed dismay that various media outlets initially reported that 23 people were killed in the attack, when the actual number was much lower. Gissin said the incident would not impact the IDF's operations in the area. "We do not intend on staying there longer than needed to uncover the tunnels and disrupt the terrorist supply lines," he said. "The minute the security services believe the mission has been accomplished, that the tunnels have been sufficiently disrupted and the infrastructure damaged, we will get out." Foreign Ministry spokesman David Saranga said Israel's representatives abroad are trying to combat the damage done by the pictures of the incident by expressing regret, and then trying to explain what exactly happened and why. "This was not the result of intentional fire," he said. "It was a mistake, and we are sorry." Saranga said the Foreign Ministry's representatives abroad are trying to focus world attention not only on the immediate results of the IDF's actions in Rafah, but on the reasons why the IDF had to go there in the first place. PA Chairman Yasser Arafat described the incident as a "brutal massacre of civilians" and called for international intervention. PA official Saeb Erekat described the incident as a war crime and called on the world to intervene. Footage taken by foreign news crews and broadcasted over the entire world generated harsh condemnation. It showed Palestinians running in the streets, some carrying wounded children to ambulances and taxis. There was no footage showing the actual firing or how the demonstrators were wounded, only the aftermath. In an attempt to minimize the damage, senior IDF officers, including IDF Spokeswoman Brig.-Gen. Ruth Yaron, immediately gave more than 40 interviews to foreign networks. Despite these attempts, al-Jazeera last night still dubbed the incident a "massacre." Ya'alon immediately flew to the scene and met with OC Southern Command Maj.-Gen. Dan Harel and Defense Minister Shaul Mofaz to assess the situation and the continuation of the IDF operation. In the early afternoon, hundreds of Palestinians set out from the center of Rafah and headed towards the Tel e-Sultan neighborhood to protest against the army's presence since early Tuesday, conducting house-to-house searches for weapons, fugitives, and tunnels. According to IDF officers, among the crowd of men, women, and children, a number of armed Palestinians were spotted. As they approached the Girit outpost, a helicopter fired one missile into an open area not far from the demonstrators as a warning for them to turn back. According to footage taken from the helicopter and drones, the missile exploded far from the demonstrators in an open area and no one was hit. Undeterred, the protesters continued and the helicopter then fired flares into the open area ahead of them, which also failed to stop the crowd. Then soldiers directed machine-gun fire at the wall of an abandoned building as another warning. When this failed to stop the crowd, a tank fired four shells at the same building and apparently one of the shells caused an explosion that hit demonstrators. Yaron said the footage of the entire incident taken from the helicopter and drones is still being studied, but noted that shortly after the tank fired a number of shells there was an explosion. The road used by the protesters was strewn with bombs placed by terrorists against soldiers, she said. "Our soldiers have not yet used the road, because it has been rigged with bombs and has not yet been cleared and made secure," she said. Asked why the tank fired four shells instead of one, Yaron said, "Deterrence fire in accordance with regulations is carried out in a series of three and one." Immediately following the incident, Israel offered the Palestinians assistance and to treat the wounded in hospitals in Israel, but the offer was declined, she said. "They asked us if they could evacuate the wounded to Egypt and we said we would look into the matter, but as far as we know all the wounded have been hospitalized in the Gaza Strip, as we allowed ambulances freedom of movement to evacuate the wounded." "The soldiers who spotted the crowd approaching and armed gunmen among them feared that they were going to be attacked," Yaron stressed. "From my understanding, the Palestinian Authority initiated the parade that set out from the center of Rafah and headed towards Tel e-Sultan. "Among the crowd were armed gunmen. In order to deter the demonstrators, a helicopter fired one missile that hit an open area nowhere near the demonstrators, then flares were fired to act as a warning, and they endangered no one. A tank fired four shells at an abandoned building at the roadside and we believe that it's possible that one of the shells penetrated the building and hit protesters," Ya'alon said. He stressed that the number of casualties first published by the Palestinian Authority was exaggerated and inflated. "We received the names of some who were killed and they also included the names of some killed earlier in the day in unrelated incidents," he said, adding, "The latest number we received was 10 and out of that four were killed in the morning. However, the numbers are not yet stable and the cause of the incident is still unclear, but I would like to stress that the IDF has no intention of harming innocent civilians." "The battle under way is a complex and complicated one, taking place in densely populated urban areas," said Mofaz. Last night figures released by the Palestinian Red Crescent said 15 Palestinians were killed and over 50 wounded in Tel e-Sultan during the day. Following the incident, hospital officials at the Najar Hospital in Rafah appealed to residents to donate blood. Throughout the Gaza Strip Palestinian officials called on all residents to participate in solidarity rallies and protest against the Israeli occupation. During the morning four Palestinians were killed by IDF gunfire in separate incidents. At mid-morning, troops called on all males aged 16 and up to gather in the streets and present their identity cards for inspection. As they began to file into the road, Palestinian gunmen opened fire, killing two Palestinians and wounded several. Soldiers returned fire. Prior to the incident, soldiers shot at several armed Palestinians spotted in the neighborhood. Meanwhile, the IDF Spokesman said that the teenage brother and sister killed on Tuesday were apparently killed by a bomb explosion and not by IDF gunfire, as the Palestinians alleged. According to initial findings after troops in the area were questioned, there was no IDF gunfire in the vicinity when the two were killed. "Soldiers were nearby and no shots were fired in the area, but they saw an explosion on the rooftop of the house and this apparently killed the two children," an IDF officer said. On the first day of Operation Rainbow, 20 Palestinians were killed in clashes with troops. Most were terrorists and known fugitives.
Yeah; people should only protest when and where things are peacefull, or where those against whom you are protesting aren't active. And firing tanks and missiles near crowds are perfectly excusable means of crwod control, if said crowd is protesting against you, and in no way are responsible for the repercussions of your reasonable actions... Makes perfect sense, and in no way sounds like desperate rationalization...
MacBeth, the next time there's a gunfight or driveby in my neighborhood , maybe I should intervene between my neighbors and/or the police and yell at them to stop. Better yet, I'll rouse all my neighbors and their children to prevent the police from shooting back. And if any of us got injured, it would only warrant being reported as news for the sheer stupidity of needlessly putting myself and others in harm's way. Tell me then, how do you disperse an angry mob of Palestinans that don't want their underground tunnels destroyed? Bear in mind you are on international TV since the IDF uses imbedded reporters now. Would you use tear gas, and risk injuring kids that way? Run them over? Machine gun them all down? Or would you do nothing at all, because I think that's the only other real option you have.
