I like Bud....he can shoot, athletic, create a bit off the dribble.....but Martin is a proven scorer in this league. Thus, I would rather give up Chase before Martin. Not to say that I'm love with KMart.....I don't think he is that great. We saw that he is similar to a Rip Hamilton, but has a tendency to disappear at points in the game. In addition, not a substantial playmaker, like say, (if you hate Tracy skip this part now!!!!!!) a early Houston TMac. And to be fair to both sides, I'll randomly throw in a random Mac isn't very good now comment.
Budinger is more athletic, but other than that there's not a single thing Budinger is better than Martin at. Is not getting injured a skill?
Something people don't understand is that Martin's game is the very being of Moreyball on the offensive side of things, and he wouldn't have invested as much money as we have in him unless he thought he could also improve defensively. From Fanhouse (using bball reference for statistical analysis): link: http://nba.fanhouse.com/2008/09/16/nba-top-50-kevin-martin-no-23/
Why is it astonishing? Kevin Martin isn't flashy. He doesn't take over games. And supposedly, he disappears in the 4th quarter. Martin is scary good scoring within the confines of the offense. In a way I would not believe possible if I didn't see it with my own eyes. Maybe it's just years of watching Mobley/Cat/T-Mac/Rafer all dribble the ball until you want to pull your hair out. So there's that inherent correlation that dribbling -> Scoring. More dribbles = More points. The weird perception that Martin is not clutch = he's not good. Obviously, the game of NBA basketball does not exist until there's only 2 minutes left in the game and the score's close. If a player goes 1-10 and causes his team to be down by 5 in crunch time, then hits a 3, then he is "clutch". If a player goes 6-10 and his team is up by 5 in crunch time, then did not shoot, his contribution doesn't matter. Because whether you go into crunch time up by 5 or down by 5 is pointless in a basketball game.
Meh has this idea more or less, and I find that this topic can even exist to be amazingly dumb. We underrate Martin because we've all had games where we feel like he did absolutely nothing, and even when we look at the boxscore and see that he actually scored 25 points on 15 shots, we still don't feel like he did a lot because our eyes tell us he did nothing. Martin is damn good, and far superior to Budinger right now, and is probably going to be superior to what Bud becomes. This thread is simply asinine.
Kevin Martin is a much better human being. Kevin Martin paid for a kid's funeral back in his hometown this summer. Chase Budinger didn't even pay for his own funeral.
If we're trading away one of our wing players, no way it will be KM over CB. Trading away KM without getting a reliable wing scorer in return will leave us in the same predicament we were in before the Feb trade. It cost us Landry to get KM. KM fits Adelman's system. No way we let him go without seeing whether or not he really fits in with Yao and our other players. That being said, I don't want us to trade away any of our rotation players. We need to add, even someone just at #14, not subtract.
Martin is better right now, but Budinger will be better for the team at some point. To me it looks a bit like the Rafer and Brooks scenario...(Though not talent wise).... You move the older guy to make room for the more talented younger guy. Budinger has more to his game than Kmart does. DD
Okay, DD. You've had your fun. We all know you love Chase Budinger. But now your C-Bud Love has gone far enough. This HAS to stop! Look, I get it. Chase is a very talented young player with a variety of skills. It's hard not to like the kid. Hell, I've liked him ever since he was a McDonald's All-American in high school and was VERY happy that the Rockets took a chance on him in the draft last year. But there has to be some limit to how highly a rational person should value a player like Budinger. And stating that Chase is more talented or better than a guy as efficient and accomplished as Kevin Martin falls way beyond that limit. If Chase can develop into two-thirds of the player that Kevin Martin is right now, I would be over the moon with joy. But to claim that he is/will be BETTER than Martin is just ridiculous. I know I'm not going to change your mind (no one ever does!), but I just want to go on record that it is lunacy to say what you're saying with a straight face.
Bima, I am not looking at individual talent, I am looking at how Chase fits into the team, and I believe he can do more, dribble drive, pass and he is healthier...... Kmart is always injured...and fades in the 4th...I believe that as Chase matures, his game will grow beyond Kmarts...at least as an overall game. I think Kmart is clearly better now, at least on offense. And I change my mind all the time...... So, in conclusion, I think Chase will be better for the overall team going forward. DD
I'm with the Thug () on this. I've followed Chase for much longer than you have DD but I have never said anything like what you said or have been saying while jerking off to him
Ok, great...you guys think he won't be better than Kmart, and I do. Ok.....guess we will have to wait and see. But please understand, I am not talking about points, I am talking about overall game. Rebounding, Passing, defense, I think when you put it all together, Chase will be a better player for a winning team than Kmart. DD
So, by that rationale, the "Minnesota Timberwolves version" of Joe Smith from a few years back (great role player who could score some, rebound, pass and play solid post defense) is better than Amare Stoudemire at his peak (dominant scorer but sub-par rebounder and defender). While there is much to be said for versatility, at some point a "one-dimensional" player is SO good at that one thing that it far outweighs the talent level of the "jack of all trades, master of none" player. And I'm not even saying that Kevin Martin is one-dimensional. (Also, while I forget at the moment where you come out on the issue, I NEVER want to hear you complain about the Rockets trading for Battier in 2006 over selecting Rudy Gay, since the Battier-Gay comparison is actually more in line with your own argument than the current Budinger-Martin comparison. If you're a "Battier guy", then at least you're somewhat consistent on that issue.)
There is no doubt in my mind that Budinger will develop into a more complete player than Martin, who is a one dimensional player. However, unless Budinger develops Birdesque killer instinct, body control, insight, and intelligence, his subpar lateral quickness makes him unable to get by a lot of NBA players and unable to create his own shot.
I've followed and knew about Chase WAY before you ever laid your pretty eyes on him DD; I laid praise about him WAY before we drafted; you were rejecting him before he ever played and thought he was just going to be scrub, until you saw him run and dunk and shoot. So its obvious that you're too biased on this (because you LOVE Chase way too much) to objectively analyze Chase , while, ironically, I'm the one with objectiveness here and I have said many times that while Chase has a lot of potential, its likely that he won't ever be a star player, much less better than an fringe All Star like Kevin Martin. Its absolute crazy talk to say that Chase is going to be better than Martin
