Reggie Bush "just wins" too. Just like Vince, he doesn't put up great stats, but defenses have to account for him, he gets involved in the running and passing games, and that makes everyone around him better. Look how much NO improved last year!
The problem here is that you're going back to pure statistics as a measure of impact - which is the problem in the VY discussion. Is it a coincidence that for 3 straight years, running backs have had significant improvements while playing alongside VY? 2004: Cedric Benson, after 2 average years, had a phenomenal senior year 2005: Jamaal Charles had a great freshman year - better than last year and than he's looked this year 2006: Travis Henry, after 2+ years of sucking and zero 100 yards games, has one in the first game VY starts and then goes on to a great year with many 100 yard games 2007: Only one game so far, in which Chris Brown had a career game Is it coincidence? Maybe. Or it could be the impact of playing alongside a QB that forces defenses to change their tactics to deal with his rushing. If that's the case, then his impact goes beyond simply the stats. Nevermind all the coaches and teammates from high school through the pros who've flat out said that his impact goes well beyond the stats - there's plenty of statistical evidence to suggest that teams as a whole play better when he's on the field. If you believe it to be a coincidence, that's fine. But you're simply talking past the people who don't believe that. And the other side is talking past you. And both sides are going to continually yell at one another not understanding why the other side can't see their viewpoint.
good stuff; a few minor corrections... yeah, kinda - they scored a defensive and special teams touchdown, and carr had... five turnovers in the game? 3? god, i can't even remember. baby vince was... OK; lsightly above average. they certainly didn't win BECAUSE of him; with carr on the other side, virtually any QB would have won that afternoon. arguably, carr's worse game of the year. i think you mean pac man jones; three times in the 4Q, he cut the field in half for baby vince with two INTs and a long punt return. not that vince didn't manage the other half, but the notion that vince was the "driving force" of a game like this is EXACTLY why our feathers get ruffled; not to mention, you failed to properly credit how massively NY choked - blew a 21-point 4Q lead.
but new orleans also had a better rookie than reggie bush, a qb who was the best in the nfc, and a running back who had one his best years in new orleans.
A few days ago, you said they had a terrible team, won by luck last year, and would suck this year. Now, they've suddenly done a great job over the last few years rebuilding their roster and putting together a good team?
How, exactly, does a QB that isn't a particularly a good thrower (at this point) open up running lanes? How about giving credit to the OL? And Travis Henry did not suck before being a VY teammate. He racked up 1400+ yards in Buffalo in 2002 and 1300+ yards in 2003. Then he had a couple of years with injury problems. In his first game with Denver this year he had 139 yards, even without VY's mystical presence. Chris Brown already had a career year, his sophomore year in 2004, when he had over 1,000 yards in just 11 games and averaged 4.9 yards per carry. Then he had injury problems.
Well, you could also say that VY had help with Pacman Jones, Travis Henry and a coaching staff that has been to the Super Bowl.
Maybe, but this spy would be close to the line of scrimmage. I would think a QB who throws downfield would open up the running game more, because defenses would have to use more nickel and dime packages.
i guess we could quibble over the definition of "average" but benson rushed for 2,300 yards and scored 25 TDs his first two, non-vince years in college, which is pretty damn good. he also progressed every single year, before and after vince, so i don't think it was a coincidence; i just think cedric benson was a badass college football player and would have been, vince or no vince. henry - the former second round pick - rushed for 1,438 yards and 1,356 yards in 02 and 03 with buffalo, started a total of 6 games over the next two years due to injury and then, yes, had baby vince save his career when he rushed for his career-best 1,211 yards last year - oh, wait, that was his third best total. hmmmm... how is that possible? was baby vince maybe a ballboy for those bills teams?... (eye roll)
So the OL was magically good his year, but not the years before or after VY was on these teams? A QB who's a threat to run changes the game because it changes what the defense can do. If you have to worry about the QB running all over you, you can't tee off on the running back - this was especially true with the zone-read at Texas (and to a lesser extent with the Titans). Remember the Texans game where everyone b****ed that the Texans were stupid for blitzing on 3rd and long? Having a mobile QB changes how a defense plays. Having a super-mobile QB completely changes it. Yes, and that would be relevant if Vince took over in 2004. However, from 2004-2005, he totalled 600 yards in 2 years - including a year behind that same OL in Tennessee. That's why I said "2+ years of sucking". He also sucked the first couple of games in 2006 when Kerry Collins was starting. Suddenly, the very first game he plays with VY, he has 123 yards - his best game since 2003. And he goes on to average a career high in yards per carry. Again, it might all be a coincidence - if you want to go that route, that's fine. But you're basically suggesting Vince Young is the luckiest person on the planet and his entire collegiate and NFL career thus far has been the simple product of luck. Most people - including his coaches and teammates all throughout his career - would disagree. I guess you might know better, though. Absolutely. Denver is another great place for running backs due to scheme - there is also a 10+ year history of that. And yet he never had a game anywhere close to as good as last week. That's why I said "career game" and not "career year".
i've never said any of those things, major; i didn't think they'd match their 8 wins of a year ago, and i cited a string of fortuitous breaks as my reasoning, which are fairly obvious - how many teams have ONE of these things happen in a year, let alone all of them: your defense outscores the opponent when your offense is only able to generate 3 points; your kicker nails a 60-yard FG - he'd never hit one previously; your opponent chokes up a 21-point 4Q lead; you win a coin flip in OT... logic dictates they won't get all those breaks again this year, and i still believe that. but after seeing what they did to jacksonville, i'm hedging because, as i said, i (and, frankly, a lot of other people) had gone to sleep on jeff fisher. and the more i thought about fisher, him keeping those oiler teams competitive when they were homeless, how dominant they were betwee 99-03, and remembering/recognizng resse's involvement in those teams... my tune started to change; they might be OK. because they can run the football; because their defense seems like it's opportunistic - both fisher trademarks. IOW, i, like everyone else, underestimated that team. add a guy who obviously thrives under pressure as your QB and that could be a really successful formula.
He also rushed for 8,423 in high school (the most in Texas 5A history and the fourth most in Texas high school football history). He led Midland Lee to three consecutive State Championships, and rushed for a total of 15 touchdowns in the three championship games. He was the first high school player to ever make the cover of Dave Campbell's Texas Football magazine and pretty much the top RB prospect in the country before signing with Texas. Point being, he was pretty good before being teamed up with Vince.
He's not the luckiest person on the planet. That would be Robert Horry. Coincidence that he has 7 rings? Or best power forward ever? I am NOT saying he is really lucky. I think he's pretty good, deserving of the Offensive Rookie of the Year award, he's more impressive to me than Leinart, and he makes people around him better with his poise and leadership. But going so far as to say he's the reason Travis Henry and Chris Brown are good- that's ridiulous. They've proven themselves to be pretty good without Young, as I posted above, having had excellent years well before Young came into the NFL. Bottom line is that this is a team sport, I think some VY fans seem to forget that.
such bull****. he wasn't "sucking" - HE BROKE HIS LEG. he was then suspended four games in 05 and came back to battle nagging injuries all year (ankle). he started 6 games in that time span. he was still getting up to speed in 2006: he carried NINE TIMES in the titans' opener, ferchrissakes. see his HEALTHY rushing totals with buffalo prior to 2004.
This is nowhere close to being true. Texas fans were generally disappointed that Benson did not develop much his sophomore and the beginning of his junior year after a phenomenal rookie campaign. Freshman year: 1053 yards, 4.7 ypc (223 carries) Sophomore year: 1293 yards, 4.2 ypc (305 carries) The first half of his junior year was terrible - with just one 100-yard game in his first six. He picked it up strong in the 2nd half - with six straight 100-yard games. Guess what that correlates to? Yes, that's right - that's when Vince took over the Texas offense. And then he had a fantastic senior year. Nice try, though. Ah yes, he was injured right up until the day that Vince first started. The month before that? Must have still been injured with his two terrible games in September, and inability to get off the bench in another. Like I said, you can keep believing Vince Young is the product of the greatest series of coincidences in history. Others don't. Vince didn't start the first month - and Travis Henry (apparently by pure coincidence) sucked. Look at his stats while Vince was starting and expand that to a 16 game season and you'll find career numbers in yards and yards-per-carry. Nice try, yet again.
Who was the QB during those years? Those are pretty good numbers. Also, was he the only RB during those years? The truth could lie somewhere in the middle, no? I certainly don't believe he was solely responsible for all the wins since he's taken over as some would suggest.
Of course they are GOOD. They are *better* alongside a dual-threat QB. Nonsense. In a team sport, players have impacts beyond stats. If their teammates and coaches can see it, why is it so difficult for you? No Vince fan has said he's the greatest player ever - just that you can't look at things like QB rating and get a full sense of the impact a player has on a game.
Ah yes. He only got fully healthy the day that Vince started. Gotcha. The week before that, he was still getting up to speed. The very next week, Travis Henry is at 100%. Vince Young is the luckiest player ever.
