Because it's all about only the superstar players, not all 22 guys on the field. Brilliant. You're one of those "Vince just wins" guys, aren't you? "Brilliant."
Over Tom Brady and Peyton Manning? BWahaaahahahaaaaahaaahaaa!! Heh. Haaha. Mmfff. <snort> Oh, crap! BWAAAAAHAAHAHAAAAHAAAAAAAAAAAAAHAAHAHAAHAahaaaaahaaahaaa!!
But that's not what you said. In that case, I agree with you. I'd take Vince over Van Pelt, Zabransky, Rosenfels, David Carr, and Matt Schaub, too. Of course, that's not saying much about Vince.
Its going to be interesting comparing Schaub and Vince's performances at the end of the year. And by interesting, I mean apocalyptic BBS meltdown. (and that is a winner, plain and simple)
AJ was a rookie last year? Here's a better question, would you trade Schaub/Mario for VY? I wouldn't.
so who do I give the extra second round pick they gave up to? surely not you're not going to argue that was their plan?
The past doesn't matter. What happened in the spring of 2006 doesn't matter right now. What matters is that in the late-summer of 2007, we appear to have a much more compentent QB and the DPOW.
Why would you even look at making that trade? This has devolved into one of the dumber VY vs. anti-VY arguments on this BBS (not you, RM95). And there have been some seriously dumb ones in the past.
If we're discussing 2007, it is. Check the calendars...the 2006 draft happened in 2006. Why in the world are we still discussing it? With regards to both VY and Bush? Why can't we simply discuss the fact that we have the DPOY and have replaced our terrible QB with a seemingly much more competent one?
Wasn't White on the team last year when the Titans were losing? Wasn't basically every other player on last years team there and sucking before Vince got under center? You can make all the excuses that you want, but the bottom line is pre-VY (same squad) they were losing. With VY under center the team almost made the playoffs (something a Texans fan would die to have happen). Distribute the credit elsewhere if you like but the W's do not go away...or the fact that they were L's before someone moved in at QB. Young isn't the greatest thing since sliced bread but to say Mario had more impact than him last year, based on some stats, is silly. If that's the case Carr had a more positive impact last year too. So no need to get Matt, right? Carr had the stats, right? Who cares that the team was losing.......
Three games is an absurdly small sample size to make a judgment, and White had a combined one carry in two of those three games. Also, what does it matter how Carr compared to VY? The idea, you know, is to get a good quarterback, not to compare how they are relative to VY. The world exists outside of him.
I'd take Shaub over VY any day in the NFL. VY's numbers and QB rating have been awful in the NFL, they got some breaks, he made a few plays with his feet, Titans won a few games and people overreacted. "VY just wins" that take is so tired. IMO, he will be exposed this year - not a very good NFL QB. Titans might squeak out 5 wins this year if they get some breaks. They are one of the worst teams in the league.
Clearly you guys have taken this Vince Young discussion to the next level, plain and simple...but allow me to bog it down with some analysis quickly. Desert Scar mentioned earlier that Vince was conservatively 1/3 responsible for the Titans wins...and that is why his 9-5 record is indicative of how good a player he is. Let's break down those 9 wins, shall we? 2006 Week 6: Tenn 25, Wash 22 Top Performers & Vince V. Young - 13/25 for 161 yds passing, 1 TD, 9 yds rushing T. Henry - 32 carries for 178 yds 1 TD Analysis - Just from stats alone, I don't think you can argue Vince accounted for 1/3rd of the reason why the team won. Henry was better individually, and other players made plays as well. But Vince did have a semi-decent day Week 8: Tenn 28, Hou 22 Top Performers & Vince V. Young - 7/15 for 87 yds passing, 1 TD, 44 yds rushing 1 TD A. Jones - Int, Punt return for TD Analysis - Vince didn't do much yardage wise, but accounted for 2 TDs, so that is something. I'm guess he had some special teams help to get him good field position (or some turnovers). But regardless, I would concede that he was at least 1/3rd responsible for this game. Week 11: Tenn 31, Phi 13 Top Performers & Vince V. Young - 8/22 for 101 yds, 1 TD; 49 yds rushing T. Henry - 18 rushes for 143 yds, 1 TD A. Jones - 90 yd return for TD Analysis - Vince didn't have much of a completion percentage in this game, although he did throw for one of their TDs. Overall, though, I would say Henry likely had more of an impact. I would not say Vince was 1/3rd or more responsible for this victory. Keep in mind, this is also the game in which McNabb got hurt. Week 12: Tenn 24, NYG 21 Top Performers & Vince V. Young - 24/35 for 249 yds 2 TD, 69 yds rushing and a lost fumble Adam Jones - 2 INT Analysis - Clearly Vince was the driving force in this game. In these analysis, I am only including lost fumbles since they really effect the game while recovered fumbles probably just hurt your field position. But I will note that there seemed to be a LOT of Vince fumbles that his teammates recovered for him. He lost this one and had at least 6 or 7 others over the course of the season...that is something that could have easily gone the other way for him, had the ball bounced differently. Week 13: Tenn 20, Ind 17 Top Performers & Vince V. Young - 15/25 for 163 yds, 2 TDs 2 INTs; 78 yds rushing T. Henry - 20 rushes for 93 yds Rob Bironas - 60 FG to win the game Analysis - I just included Bironas's field goal since it was a remarkably long distance and it won the game. Vince had a good game completion and TD-wise, but he had 2 turnovers as well. In general, against the Colts, I would give most of the credit to the defense for holding them to only 17 points, regardless of circumstance. That's at least half the responsibility, and I don't think Vince accounts for 2/3rds of what the offense did. Just my opinion. Week 14: Tenn 26, Hou 20 Top Performers & Vince V. Young - 19/29 for 218 yds 0 TD 1 INT; 86 rushing yds 1 TD (game winner in OT) T. Henry - 20 rushes for 88 yds, 2 TD Analysis - Everyone remembers the 39 yd scramble in OT. Kind of hard to forget. For that reason, I'd say he acounts for 1/3rd or more of the reason they won...but he did have a TO and Henry managed most of their scoring. But I'll call this a win for Vince. Week 15: Tenn 24, JAX 17 Top Performers & Vince V. Young - 8/15 for 85 yds, 0 TD, 0 INT A. Jones - 1 INT returned 83 yds for TD C. Hope - 1 INT returned 92 yds for TD C. Finnegan - Fumble recovery returned 61 yds for TD Analysis - This is another of those games that the Titans would have won regardless of who was manning the QB spot. In other words, a game they definitely won despite Vince's non-impact. Week 16: Tenn 30, Buf 29 Top Performers & Vince V. Young - 13/20 for 183 yds 2 TDs; 61 yds rushing for 1 TD T. Henry - 25 rushes for 135 yds, 0 TDs Analysis - On the opposite end of the spectrum. A good game for Vince in the air and on the ground. Henry had 135 yards as well, but Vince performed well, so I'd concede this game. 2007 Week 1: Tenn 13, Jax 10 Top Performers & Vince V. Young - 11/18 for 78 yds, 0 TD 1 INT; 22 yds rushing for 1 TD C. Brown - 19 rushes for 175 yds L. White - 18 rushes for 66 yds Analysis - He rushed for a TD, but threw an INT. Otherwise, Vince was a non-factor while the running game ran all over Jacksonville. I would not say Vince was even a small reason why this game was won. Defense and running game account for almost 100% of it. So, going back to tally, by my count that is a total of 4 games in 9 that he was a significant factor in. To me, that's not enough to make the statement "Vince just wins" as if regardless of QB rating, he is largely responsible for most of his teams victories. As others have mentioned, he has been able to benefit largely from significant teammate contributions in many of those wins. It's not to say he won't eventually develop into a HOF QB, but right now he clearly gets more credit than is really his due. I think that is why people take exception to the hero worship he receives. It took me forever to type this, so hopefully it hasn't all been rehashed by someone else while I was doing it.
Because you didn't account for the 2 extra draft picks and the drop in the 1st round that the new competent QB cost.
first of all, good analysis. secondly, how many games does he have to have a significant impact in to say he deserves the praise he gets. he only started 13, they won eight, and you say he had impact in four. that's a pretty good number for a rookie imo. and secondly, you have to factor in how many games he can directly be attributed with the loss. off top I can think of the new england game. but that's about it. the other games the team wins can't count against him either.
so vince young made professional football players not suck? here's what i think: a) jeff fisher is a tremendous coach; 2) floyd reese hung about a decade's worth of solid drafts and free agent signings on his resume when he was with houston/tennessee; c) i think we all went to sleep on those two points. plus, over a two-year span (03 & 04), tennessee lost george, kearse and rolle, and then mcnair missed eight games in 04 and was gone after 05 - that's pretty significant turnover. so that year and the next, tennessee quietly rebuilt things; they picked in the top 10 two years in a row; they got a gift from the texans in the form of multiple day one picks... and fisher and reese went to school reshaping their roster, something they've proven to be very good at. i don't think baby vince is the reason they MAY have turned a corner; i think fisher and reese are and their efforts are starting to pay off. i mean, fisher's among the five best coaches in football and while a lot of people know it's vince and no one else, they DO have some talent on that team. and i think we should all accept that they've got a pretty good-to-great OL, a fisher hallmark. they've posted two 170+-yard individual rushing games in their past 12 - that's pretty flat-out phenomenal.
