You know the worst part about all this? When the Titans suck this year, the VY jockers will point to the talent around him being ****ty. Its basically a no-win situation with that crowd. Frustrating.
what have you proven? your analysis of the giants game, they choked. that's a hell of an analysis. the titans went from 23rd to 5th in rushing last season, also look at atl's rushing totals with another running qb. travis henry's per yardage improved with tenn. kris brown had a break out game. I don't know what kind of proof you want, all you argue is the results. did vince actually carry the guys through the hole, no, but other than that I don't know what you want other than to keep arguing. it just goes back to the same argument, we can sit here and argue day after day whether vince has intangibles, whether defensive co ordinators change their normal game planning for him. really that's the only way. so since you're the self proclaimed reporter, there's an assignment for you.
NFL Network broke it down nicely today. Though it was one play, you can clearly see the impact of VY to the running game. VY makes a basic handoff, rolls right. The RB takes off running up the middle; meanwhile, the LB takes off running to follow VY. Ordinarily, the LB comes up to stuff the RB for maybe a 3-4 yd gain. In this case, however, what would've been a modest gain turns into a huge one as the LB doesn't even realize who has the ball until the RB is already way upfield. Of course, looking only at box scores or QB rating wouldn't clue you in to plays like this. You'd have to actually watch the game. Another thing, I'd like to know why Chris Brown didn't average 5 yds a carry the year after he gained 1000+ in 11 games, and why TEN brought in Travis Henry if Fisher's system would allow Brown to do what he did consistently.
if you're going to argue vince young makes running backs/games better, then your first point is comletely and totally irrelevant. what does it matter what he did or didn't do if he proved to be a 1,500-yard back without vince young? or is your point that those 11 games were a fluke but this one, single, solitary game is not? as for henry, i suppose they brought him in for the same reason they drafted lendale white and chris henry is consecutive 2nd rounds: they make a commitment to running the football and finding guys who can.
Check his stats in 2005. VY was not there. That is one way to put it. Another way would be that they weren't happy with that position. Yet another way to put it would be that he sucked. Why would you keep bringing in other RBs if you had a bona fide "1,500 yard back"? Those guys are pretty rare last time I checked. Do you remember Gary Brown putting up 1,000+ yards in 10 games?
If a quarterback's greatest accomplishment is that his legs helps the running game that seems like a bit of a backhanded compliment. Sort of like being known as the best blocking wide reciever, or the offensive lineman with the best hands. As long as his career QB rating is 65.8, it doesn't matter how much he helps the running game.
so his 11 games in 04 were a fluke? and i guess last sunday's wasn't? is that really the point you're trying to make? do you even know what point you're making? because bringing up his 2005 stats means absolutely nothing. none of these backs require a QB scrambling six times a game who can't complete 52% of his passes to achieve success because - here's the dick-kicker - they've ALL had success prior to ever playing with vince young, a point you and the others continue to ignore. "yeah, well, what about 2005??" yeah - what about it? it disproves what, the freak? that chris brown is a mediocre RB? inconsistent? or are you just hoping if you stomp your feet and repeat "2005!!" enough times that we'll all tire out and go away? he averaged 97 yards/game in 2004 in 11 starts. without vince young. plain as day the implication.
Because he's made of glass. Even when he played in games, he was always questionable or probable, having sat out the previous weeks practices. When he's healthy, he is a very good RB.
Yes, they had individual success prior to VY. Some have had more success with VY. No one said the dudes sucked. They posted stats showing improvement with VY under center. Your question was how does a QB like VY help the running game, right? Others have posted stats showing the improvement. I don't think anyone said VY made those RB's, or that they sucked without VY. They said a running QB like him can make it easier on a RB. Again, statistical evidence has been posted showing this (since you love stats). You choose to ignore it. So I really don't see the point of continuing to post stats showing these RB's had success prior to VY unless you are responding to someone saying these RB's were garbage (I don't recall seeing a post like that). All of these dudes posted those stats to show how a RB can make it easier for a RB. Again, was their improvement shown or not? Additionally, another poster gave around 3 examples of how a running QB can make it easier on a RB (in theory). As expected, you ignore/discredit his commentary. Another poster noted how they broke down the impact on ESPN (just one play however). You ignore that as well. Plenty of evidence has been provided for you...you just don't agree with it. Your mind is made...it does not matter what people say.
"Prove" that Peyton or Brady makes those teams win 3-4 more than they would with Sorgi or X other guy in there. Of course it is quantitatively impossible, but you can make some educated guesses by breaking down individual games and seeing where plays were made by them where it is doubtfull they would be made by others. Or you might want to look at the Titans wins last year. Look at the % of TDs he scored (throwing or running). Look at the % of 3rd downs he converted with his arm or legs. Look at the number of positive offensive plays or highlight plays he was most responsible for. How many of these positive plays would you think Collins/Volek/McNair would have made. Here was Raven Lunatic's individual game breakdown from last year, which he spent a lot of time on. His thesis by the way was the there isn't enough evidence to suggest "VY just wins", that VY is getting too much credit, but even he clearly suggests almost half of the Titans wins (4 of 9) he made key a number of key plays or they lose. So yes I think +3 or +4 extra wins a season (of 16) is a conservative estimate. If you don't think so I don't think you have payed much attention to the number of positive offensive plays VY was central too among all positive offensive plays of the Titans--and how few positive offensive plays the Titans encourted the previous 20+ games before he was behind center.
Raven's analysis was very well thought out and he obviously spent a lot of time on it, but using a thesis like that, I could probably say LaDanian Tomlinson was responsible for 8 of the Chargers wins or Peyton Manning was responsible for 9 of the Colts wins. Statistically, they would probably hold true, given that sort of analysis. I can't possibly see anyway of truly determining the exact impact of one player, but a general impact, sure.
you're right, and as long as they keep winning (no matter what reason) he will be the starting qb for the titans.
They have to do this with many QBs, not just Vince. Even David Carr could at times be effective on rollouts, and teams would have to honor that. It's not like with every QB other than Vince, they just let them have wide open green space. It's kind of how people keep talking about Bush being a decoy. Any decent runningback can be a good decoy, but people feel the need to hype him up. Vince is good at being a QB, all this other stuff about how he single-handedly wins games is just hype (though he single-handedly has many great plays, like the game- winning run in Houston). He seems to get more credit for wins than even Peyton Manning. If Manning threw for 78 yards and his team was 13-10, the headline would be "Colts D wins game," not "Manning just wins." Believe it or not, the same current coach of the Titans has been to the Super Bowl...without Vince.
Good. So now that we all agree that Vince Young = Trent Dilfer we can end this thread. Glad we agree.
when vince is in his fifth year and putting up sub par numbers, we can agree on that. if you are criticizing a guy who has only started 14 games about qb rating, you've already lost the argument.
also your analysis assumes the titans are as good as the ravens on defense. also your analysis assumes that trent dilfer makes winning plays for his team on ground or in the air. but its sounded funny though.
