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Many Germans converting to Islam following Salafist campaign

Discussion in 'BBS Hangout: Debate & Discussion' started by Mathloom, Jun 20, 2012.

  1. Mathloom

    Mathloom Shameless Optimist
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    I can't understand why educated Germans are converting to Salafism, but at least it is a lesson for Muslims that some countries are even willing to allow the most extreme sects of Islam to hold conversion CEREMONIES in their countries.
     
  2. Big MAK

    Big MAK Member

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    Organized religion sucks.
     
    1 person likes this.
  3. AMS

    AMS Contributing Member

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    Define Salafism. Does Salafism = Wahhabism? Are all Salafi's Extremists?
     
  4. AroundTheWorld

    AroundTheWorld Insufferable 98er
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    Misleading thread title. Where do you get the "many" Germans supposedly converting
    from? Internal Islamist propaganda data you have access to? Because it is certainly
    not in the article.
     
  5. DaDakota

    DaDakota If you want to know, just ask!

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    What, Mathloom being out of context?

    Those pesky government shilling barbers !

    DD
     
  6. Mathloom

    Mathloom Shameless Optimist
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    IIRC Wahhabism is a Salafist movement which considers Abdul Wahhab to be a figure which appears for every generation called a "Mujaddid", which means renewer. This person is believed to appear every once in a while and "remind" Muslims to strip away "innovations" in Islam, and re-establish its purity. Personally, I think that this belief is a blatant violation of core Islamic principles as defined in the Quran. If the principles of Abdul Wahhab existed after Muhammad passed away, then Hadith would not come into existence since Hadith collection is a flagrant violation of his "no innovation" rules, especially in light of the fact that Muhammad actually demands in various hadiths that Muslims should not write down his non-Quran speech/words.

    Also, I believe all Salafis interpret texts more literally than any other sect, group or branch of Islam. Plus the majority treat non-Quranic texts (such as Hadith) binding, and also consider the Prophet to have never made a mistake, and also that the Sahaba have special qualities. IMO these things make them the most extreme interpretors of Islam than any group since Islam has existed.

    But it's important to make one distinction for the brainwashed people: All salafists are extreme in their interpretation of Islamic texts, but not all of them have uniform views and certainly not all of them engage in or support aggression towards innocent people. Salafists in Islam are like Catholic Christians or (correct me if I'm wrong) Haredi Jews.
     
  7. Joshfast

    Joshfast "We're all gonna die" - Billy Sole
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    /end thread

    /end subforum
     
  8. Mathloom

    Mathloom Shameless Optimist
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    I was hoping you would say that.

    I think 4,000 per year = many. I intentionally used "many" because it's generic.

    Here's a video of one:

    <iframe width="420" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/AQurCEPodeI" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>
     
  9. AroundTheWorld

    AroundTheWorld Insufferable 98er
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    Article fail.

    So, in other words, it's a pure guess.

    Also, it does not address how many people leave Islam. Maybe 10,000 leave it every year in Germany?

    Certainly none of the articles proves a correlation between your salafist friends' desperate campaigning and alleged conversions to Islam, as your thread title suggests.

    Wishful thinking on your part.

    Congratulations on posting extremist propaganda videos, though. Your desperation and fanatism shows more and more on this forum.
     
  10. Mathloom

    Mathloom Shameless Optimist
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    It's still "many", even if it's 1,000, and even if 20,000 leave Islam in the same period.

    If I wanted to give a false impression, there are many words I could have used to exaggerate the figures. Instead I picked the word "many", which is fairly neutral, almost meaningless and accurate and I provided the best estimates of people far more knowledgeable than you or me.

    As I've told you before, no one is going to meet your selective standards in the case of Islam. The level of due dilligence I've done is acceptable practice on this board, and I haven't said anything inflammatory. In fact, my comment in the OP can possibly be seen as insulting to Salafis, but they haven't erupted in anger about it like you. I said something very positive about Germany, and you are still whining.

    Moving on.
     
  11. AroundTheWorld

    AroundTheWorld Insufferable 98er
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    No no no. You were trying to create the false impression that the conversion efforts of Salafists are successful in Germany. None of the sources you provided give any evidence of that. If a few thousand people convert to Islam, this - contrary to your misleading thread title - is more likely caused by people getting married to Turks or something like that. Also, converting to Islam does not equal converting to Salafism.

    Stop lying to us. Your attempt at deceiving people has once again been BUSTED.
     
  12. Mathloom

    Mathloom Shameless Optimist
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    No no no. ATW has said no, and discovered my devious scheme!! lol Anyways, you've said your piece about what you think I was trying to do.

    Thanks.
     
  13. aussiejack

    aussiejack Member

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    Freedom of religion. What gives us the right to criticise their conversion? As long as their conversion is not harming or disrupting other's lives, what standing do we have to interfere with their spiritual life?
     
  14. Mathloom

    Mathloom Shameless Optimist
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    Won't it disrupt some people's lives?
     
  15. aussiejack

    aussiejack Member

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    Prove it. :confused:
     
  16. Mathloom

    Mathloom Shameless Optimist
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    Here is an example:

    http://www.spiegel.de/international...te-two-legal-systems-in-germany-a-839580.html

    Particularly in the case of underaged females. In Germany, females aged 16-18 can get married with permission from the "Family Court". But these imams are evading the system before the girls are old enough to understand what it means to give up rights provided by civil marriage governed by the state, rather than Islamic marriage governed by anyone who knows how to recite the 4 lines required.

    This is a typical case where having faith in specific sub-sects of Islam can disrupt the life of - not anyone - but the daughters of those who are converting if those converting believe in a an extremely conservative form of Islam. It is not common practice, but it happens.

    Usually, it is rational to place responsibility on authorities to ensure that youth are protected from such issues. But keep in mind we are talking about girls who are raised very much at home, and who are influenced to enter marriage aged 15, 16, 17. Generally, those girls should be free to do as they please, but they are under a certain degree of duress in these cases, and it is not plausible for authorities to differentiate between good parents and bad parents. Moreover, German authorities attempt to deal with a new cultural problem using old methods - this just exacerbates the situation.

    So here is a situation where those converting can, IMO, objectively be called a danger to their children since appropriate protection is not in place. Furthermore, the authorities are doing little to alleviate the situation.

    This raid on allegedly extremist Muslims coincides with the Salafist movement in Germany:

    I don't know the facts maybe ATW can contribute something. But the timing is extremely extremely extremely fishy to me. The article states that Muslims are growing more distrustful of authorities, and who can blame them:

    We occassionally make blanket statements to describe sects and sub-sects when discussing things on a message board, but for the Interior Minister of a country with a large Muslim population to come out and name ONE group is proposterous and outlandish. Furthermore, his statement very much describes many sects of Christianity and Judaism which put their own God's law above the State Law. There are other groups similar to Salafis in their beliefs and actions, why were they left out of this witch hunt?

    The situation is not an easy one. For that reason, I don't consider a potential disruption of someone's life to be a valid reason to be critical of this practice. There will be disruption, this is a consequence which will exist until further cultural diffusion takes place. IMO they can go ahead and disrupt people's lives as long as it is legal, although I don't support such behavior and am critical of it. When they break the law, the authorities will come and correct the situation, as they do with any other person of any religion or culture.

    But the reality is that they can disrupt and we can be critical, and neither can stop the other. This is how immigrant culture fuses into the culture of the country, it is never a smooth transition. It is a sham to believe that after centuries, we have now decided that the immigrants must adopt a new culture. German culture already contains facets of other cultures. This was not asked of the Irish, Africans, Britsh, French, Asian, or Mexicans who immigrated to the United States, where the original culture of Native Americans was completely wiped out. If you are aussie, you will note the story is almost identical in Australia. Without exception, every culture is at least partially a fusion of cultures, and every new addition modifies the existing culture to give it broader horizons.

    Muslims are being villified in the German press for not assimilating - in fact, this is a way of saying German culture is better. Think about the concept of every immigrant coming to a country and adopting the new culture while disposing old: it's like a factory for the existing culture, mass-producing the same product. What benefit is there in that?

    Imagine if a German in an Arab country was asked to adopt the culture of the Arab country? What if that German distrusted the government, and falsely felt that his religion was being targetted? What if the interior minister of this Arab country spoke out against Catholics, although he is Orthodox? What if the authorities concluded a raid on extremist Christians the same time that Bibles were being distributed via an awareness campaign?

    It's all fluff IMO. All that matters: is it legal or not, is it being enforced or not. If they're not happy with that, they can always reduce immigration. It's totally voluntary. You can't have your cake, and it eat it too.
     
  17. IzakDavid13

    IzakDavid13 Contributing Member

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    This^^^
     
  18. aussiejack

    aussiejack Member

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    You just copied and pasted a slab of text. You have to do better than that. Explain to me how they're harming their neighbour and their community.

    Sharia law isn't the norm in German, or in fact anywhere in Europe. Yes, there are pockets of people 'practising' it within their own families and their social circle but how is that different to the way the Amish practice their own religion in Pennsylvania? We respect them and their archaic way of life, so why does it not extend to the Muslims?

    I sense this repulsion you have towards their culture and religion is fear of the unknown. You fear what you don't know or understand. I don't blame you. It's just your instincts speaking.
     
  19. Mathloom

    Mathloom Shameless Optimist
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    They are harming their own children by denying them their rights, that's the most important part. They are marrying off 16 year olds by telling these 16 yr olds that they speak for God, then consumating the marriage in a parallel illegitimate arbitration system. These girls don't know what rights they are forgoing and they have no chance against these types of people.

    Secondly, they don't harm the community, but they very well may disrupt the lives of some people. For example, if mosques are playing the call to prayer too loud in the early morning, this is disruptive to the neghbours and the community. Regardless, this is a matter for the authorities. It can't be used as a factor for whether to be critical of conversion or not. To be clear: I'm not saying they shouldn't be allowed to convert or they harm the community. I am saying that we can be critical, and they very well may harm the community, but that is irrelevant to whether they should covert or not. Whether they convert or not is purely a matter of their own choice and the legality of it.

    To be honest, I don't know much or anything about Ammish people except for the way they're portrayed in American movies and tv shows. But I imagine they don't break the state law, so they can do whatever they want. Same for Muslims and Extreme Muslims.

    Umm, I'm Arab/Turkish/Persian, and was born Muslim. Lived in the Middle East most of my life. I detest all group cultures (though there is much to learn from parts of each), my own or otherwise, and am repulsed by extremist conservative ideology, which applies to religious, economic, political, social, any kind of ideology. So there goes that argument. Your final comments are a good example of what I'm saying: I don't like them, but you have every right to make them, and I would defend that right, even if it was disruptive to my life somehow. In the same fashion, we should not focus on this arbitrary notion of "disruptive to community or neighbours", because many things are allowed in Germany that are practiced, enforced and legal while being disruptive to some or other members of the community.
     
  20. DaDakota

    DaDakota If you want to know, just ask!

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    Get out the pigs blood bullets !

    ;)

    DD
     

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