Yes there will be a question of excessive force and if the technique used was justified with the threat. They would have to first answer if it was justified to have even engaged Neely in the first case. Self-defense isn’t just personal but also third party. Penny will likely argue that even though his life wasn’t directly in threat that he acted to protect the safety of others. According to his lawyers that is his primary argument already.
NY has a Good Samaritan law that allows e.g., drug users to call in a drug overdose without fear of being arrested etc. Such laws also prevent being sued for wrongful death when unpredictable consequences result from rendering aid. I wonder if one could make an analogous argument in this case, i.e., Penny was "rendering aid" (to other occupants of the subway car that is) by subduing Neeley.
I’m not familiar with NY laws in particular but I’m not sure that applies as my understanding is that has to do with things like injuries caused by giving CPR. In most self defense laws there are third party self defense. I’m pretty sure Penny will focus on that. I still think it comes down to whether it was justified to engage Neely in the first place and then whether the technique used was appropriate response.
Althouse https://althouse.blogspot.com/2023/05/jordan-neely-was-on-list-informally.html May 13, 2023 "[Jordan Neely] was on a list informally known as the Top 50, a roster of people in a city of eight million who stand out for the severity of their troubles..." "... and their resistance to accepting help. The list is overseen by a task force of city agency workers and social-service nonprofits; when homeless-outreach workers see someone in the subway who is on the list, they are supposed to notify the city and try to get that person to a shelter. Despite that, and an open arrest warrant, Mr. Neely was out on his own on May 1, when he began ranting at passengers. A Marine veteran, Daniel Penny, grabbed him and choked him to death; Mr. Penny has now been charged with manslaughter.... At a news conference on Thursday, Councilwoman Pierina Sanchez, referring to Mr. Neely’s presence on the list, said: 'Our city knew exactly who Jordan was, where he was and what his history was. And yet we failed him.'... The goal of the list is to connect disparate bureaucracies across a vast city...." From "Jordan Neely Was on New York’s 'Top 50' List of Homeless People at Risk/Mr. Neely, who was killed by another subway rider, was on a watch list for a city task force that kept track of the New Yorkers of most concern" (NYT). The city failed more than just Jordan Neely. It failed everyone who felt threatened by him, including the one who felt called to apply force to stop him and who now may go to prison for misjudging the extent to which the law permits the application of force, and everyone who sees what is happening to Daniel Penny and feels constrained, going forward, about taking any action in the presence of a threat and who must nevertheless go underground and shut themselves into subway cars that may or may not carry a "Top 50" person and who are given only the insulting comfort of the knowledge that the city's disparate bureaucracies are connected. Posted by Ann Althouse at 10:39 AM
Seems pretty open and shut to me. Choking someone out for 15 mins is fked up and some punishment should b dole out. Now we just have to figure out how much. In no world can anyone justify choking someone that long.
The problem with this is that unless Penny knew Neely and his history it wouldn’t apply as Neely could be anyone who happened to be acting out at that moment . Even if Penny knew Neely’s history that could weaken the self defense argument because then Penny’s use of force was less about self defense but apprehending a suspect. He’s not an LEO out to enforce a warrant. As I said earlier it’s Penny’s defense will likely try to introduce this. My guess is the judge will not allow it.
The argument will be that Neely represented enough of a threat that force was used. Then that Penny wasn’t aware that the technique he used was so dangerous.
Ron approves of white guys choking blacks to death. I get it. Typical GOP stance. If the role was reversed he would be calling for an execution, because the guy who died didn't physically attack and hurt anyone, and didn't have a weapon. As for Vets, we all know how the GOP always votes NO to bills designed to help them. Hypocrites! Looks like the right's pro "white" criminal agenda is surfacing again.
Give it a rest already with that BS 15 minutes chokehold. Mayor Adams said the police were there in 7-8 minutes. Repeating a narrative from the lying media does not make it true.
You keep them in a hold until they are no longer a threat to everyone. Thats why you put them in a hold to begin with
I kind of wondered about that. Fifteen minutes is an awfully long subway ride. That would be 8 or 9 stops at least, not sure how that would work
You limit blood flow to their brain, compromise their airway. Depending on underlying problems like this guy you can kill them. This guy wasn’t armed. NOnreason to do it
Multiple people thought he needed to be restrained. The restrainers were thanked by the people there for doing it. Who gives a **** if he was armed . You can kill and paralyze people with a punch. The people there seemed terrified.
The 15 minutes part is highly disputed. There's too much misinformation on how long it was applied, and in my opinion, almost irrelevant. You can see Neely resisting while the choke hold was applied. He could've resisted for the whole 15 minutes because it was a poorly applied choke hold. What matters more is how long it was held after Neely lost consciousness. After Neely was unconscious, the restrainers put him in the recovery position. They were trying to subdue him, not hurt him. What's interesting to me is the NYC subreddit is largely in favor of Penny. Reddit is very left leaning, so it's unexpected for Penny to have that support on local social media.
According to witnesses that were there it was about 15 minutes. https://thehill.com/homenews/state-...death-on-nyc-subway-what-has-happened-so-far/
