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Magic Number for the Rockets against West Playoff Contenders

Discussion in 'Houston Rockets: Game Action & Roster Moves' started by ScriboErgoSum, Mar 12, 2008.

  1. ScriboErgoSum

    ScriboErgoSum Member
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    I have a correction to make to my Hornest-Lakers-Rockets three way tie theory. After rereading the rules for tie breaks and seeding, I stand by the fact that we would get the #1 seed. However, after we win, the Hornets and Lakers break their tie by 2 team tie break rules. The Lakers would have a better conference record, and that gives the #2 seed to the Lakers and the #3 seed to the Hornets. We would have home court over the Lakers if we faced them in the playoffs because we took the season series 2-1. The Hornets would have home court over us due to their better division record.

    With all of this three team tie break discussion, I want to mention that we want to avoid a Spurs-Suns-Rockets tie. The combined records of these teams against one another is Suns (5-3), Rockets (4-4), Spurs (3-5). The Suns would win that tie break and be the #3 seed. With the Suns decided, it switches to 2 team tie break rules, and the Spurs beat us due to their better division record. The Spurs would be #5 and the Rockets #6. We would, however, have home court over the Suns due to the Rockets owning the 2 team tie break over the Suns (better conference record). Even with home court, I don’t want to draw the Suns in the first round. This scenario would take the Spurs losing 2 (definite possibility), Suns winning out (definite possibility), and Rockets losing 2 (hopefully won’t happen, but we do have @Nuggets, @Jazz).
     
  2. don grahamleone

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    Utah won, Dallas lost, Denver lost and New Orleans lost. So, where are we now? 1/2 GB of the top seed?
     
  3. BucMan55

    BucMan55 Member

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    Tied in the loss column for the 1 seed. If the Rockets win out they will be either the 1 seed or the 5 seed. Thats just wrong. If SAS beats LAL, the Rockets will be in a 3 way tie with the Hornets and Spurs. Rockets lose that TB due to all being in the same division. Drops them down to 5th with HCA over Utah. If LAL beats SAS, Houston has the TB in a 3 team race with NO and LA since it has to go to games between the 3 teams.(Houston 4-3, NO 4-4, LA 3-4)

    Also, if Houston wins out and does get the 1 seed, look for a rule change next year that a 2nd place team automatically loses Tie Breakers with multiple team ties featuring other Division Winners. (I dont think anyone envisioned a 3 way tie at the top)
     
  4. ScriboErgoSum

    ScriboErgoSum Member
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    <B>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Games&nbsp;H2H&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Div&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Con&nbsp;&nbsp;Overall&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Magic&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</B>
    <B>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Team&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;W/L&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;H2H&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Left&nbsp;&nbsp;TB&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Div&nbsp;TB&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Conf&nbsp;&nbsp;TB&nbsp;TieBreak&nbsp;&nbsp;Number Diff</B>

    &nbsp;1&nbsp;&nbsp;Lakers&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;55-25&nbsp;&nbsp;2-1&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;None&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;W&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;N/A&nbsp;&nbsp;X&nbsp;&nbsp;35-15&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;L&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Yes*<B>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;3</B>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
    &nbsp;2&nbsp;&nbsp;Hornets&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;55-25&nbsp;&nbsp;2-2&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;None&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;T&nbsp;&nbsp;10-5&nbsp;&nbsp;L&nbsp;&nbsp;33-17&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;L&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;No*<B>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;4</B>&nbsp;&nbsp;(-1)
    &nbsp;3&nbsp;&nbsp;Spurs&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;54-25&nbsp;&nbsp;2-2&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;None&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;T&nbsp;&nbsp;10-6&nbsp;&nbsp;L&nbsp;&nbsp;31-18&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;W&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;No*<B>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;4</B>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
    &nbsp;4&nbsp;&nbsp;Jazz&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;53-27&nbsp;&nbsp;1-1&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;1A&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;T&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;N/A&nbsp;&nbsp;X&nbsp;&nbsp;32-18&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;W&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Yes<B>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;2</B>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
    &nbsp;5&nbsp;&nbsp;Rockets&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;54-25&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;8-8&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;32-17&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
    &nbsp;6&nbsp;&nbsp;Suns&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;53-27&nbsp;&nbsp;2-2&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;None&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;T&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;N/A&nbsp;&nbsp;X&nbsp;&nbsp;29-21&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;W&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Yes*<B>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;1</B>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
    &nbsp;7&nbsp;&nbsp;Mavericks&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;50-30&nbsp;&nbsp;1-3&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;None&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;L&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;9-6&nbsp;&nbsp;L&nbsp;&nbsp;32-18&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;W&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;No*<B>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Bridled</B>
    &nbsp;8&nbsp;&nbsp;Nuggets&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;48-32&nbsp;&nbsp;2-1&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;1A&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;W&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;N/A&nbsp;&nbsp;X&nbsp;&nbsp;29-21&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;W&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Yes*<B>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Dusted</B>
    &nbsp;9&nbsp;&nbsp;Warriors&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;48-32&nbsp;&nbsp;2-2&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;None&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;T&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;N/A&nbsp;&nbsp;X&nbsp;&nbsp;27-23&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;W&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Yes*<B>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Vanquished</B>

    * Indicates that the Tie Break is final and cannot be changed due to the outcomes of upcoming games. The Magic Numbers are calculated on an assumption that we will lose the Tie Break unless it's already been clinched. If we clinch a Tie Break, that will drop the Magic Number 1 point.


    <B>Clinched #6 Seed</B>

    Here is the latest batch of Magic Numbers after all games were played on <B>April 12</B>.

    The Rockets were off tonight but a number of teams were in action as we near the end of the season and a resolution to all of the insanity of the Western Conference Playoff race. Instead of casting illumination, all the races got even tighter tonight. My head is spinning trying to make sense of it all. We’ll know a lot more after tomorrow’s Spurs-Lakers and Rockets-Nuggets matchups.

    The big news of the night was the Sacramento Spoilers upsetting New Orleans. The Hornet’s Magic Number drops 1. Suddenly the Southwest division title is wide open. With a Magic Number of 4, the Hornets are definitely in our sights. The Lakers moved up to the #1 spot (for today).

    The path to the #1 or #2 seed looks a lot more accessible after the Hornets lost. If the Rockets win out, some very good things could happen with a bit of help. Consider the following scenarios:
    <B>1.</B>&nbsp;&nbsp;Lakers win out AND Hornets win out
    <B>2.</B>&nbsp;&nbsp;Hornets lose at least one game
    <B>3.</B>&nbsp;&nbsp;Spurs lose at least one game
    <B>4.</B>&nbsp;&nbsp;Lakers lose at least one game

    If condition 1 happens, the Rockets, Lakers, and Hornets are tied. The Rockets are the #1 seed and have home court over every team in the West except the Hornets who would be the #3 seed (the Lakers are #2).

    If condition 2 and 3 happen, the Rockets are the Southwest division champions, the #1 seed in the conference, and have home court over every team in the Western Conference.

    If conditions 3 and 4 happen, the Rockets are the #2 seed behind the Southwest division champion Hornets.

    If the Hornets win out and the Spurs win out, we would be the #5 seed with home court in the first round.

    I’m sure there are other possibilities, but that’s a few to chew on while we wait for tomorrow’s game. On to the rest of the night…

    We had some hopes for a Jazz loss tonight as well. The Nuggets were down big early and battled back to take a brief lead in the second half. Then they stopped playing defense, turned the ball over, and started missing shots in route to getting murdered by the Utah Jazz. Denver’s Magic Number to make the playoffs over Golden State is 2.

    The Warriors tightened up the battle for the #8 seed by beating the Clippers. This means unfortunately that the Nuggets are going to be playing with a bit of desperation when they host the Rockets Sunday night. The Nuggets have the tie break on the Warriors, but a loss Sunday night would put them a half game behind in the loss column with just a few games left (1 for Denver, 2 for Golden State). Golden State’s Magic Number to clinch over Denver is 3.

    The Mavericks could have wrapped up the #7 seed with a victory, but they chose to drop a game to the Blazers. They’ll probably still win the #7 seed, but Denver has the tie break over Dallas and could still move up.

    We can close out the Suns and move really close to securing home court in the first round with a victory against the Nuggets on Sunday. Denver will be on the second night of a back-to-back, but they are playing for a Playoff spot and can’t afford any losses right now. I feel good about this game though. Denver has looked pretty awful, and only an abysmal performance from the Warriors kept them from a 4 game losing streak. If we want to stay in the hunt for a #1 or #2 seed, tomorrow is pretty much a must-win for the Rockets.

    I still can’t believe how close everything is, but this is awesome news for the Rockets!

    Also on tap for Sunday: Spurs at Lakers, Mavs at Sonics
     
  5. DrNuegebauer

    DrNuegebauer Member

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    You'd think if there's a rule change it might be along the opposite lines to your suggestion: ie. that division winners do not automatically qualify and that seeding is based on record, head to head, conference record.
     
  6. LewLLOYD

    LewLLOYD Member

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    We are in 5th, and we are 1/2 game out of first.
    Again I say wow. What a great year for competition.
     
  7. BucMan55

    BucMan55 Member

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    If Rockets, Hornets and Lakers win out, Rockets get 1 seed.

    If Rockets, Hornets and Spurs win out, Rockets get 5 seed. Thats some strange scenarios right there.
     
  8. Sherlock

    Sherlock Member

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    great update, Scribo ... love your posts!
     
  9. ibm

    ibm Member

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    so we ought to root for the lakers tomorrow? man...

    i'm just gonna stop letting my head spinning for now. i think 24 hours from now, the picture will be a bit clearer.
     
  10. El Toro

    El Toro Member

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    If Rockets, Hornets and Lakers win out, all three finish at 57-25. The Hornets would be the Southwest Division winners and place ahead of Houston so no way we get the #1 seed if all three teams win out. I think New Orleans has to lose one more game (likely Dallas since the Clippers, try as they might, can't finish a game strong at all five positions). We have the tie-break over the Lakers but not ahead New Orleans or San Antonio to place ahead of them if we are tied with these teams.
     
  11. doublebogey

    doublebogey Member

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    Only 2-3 games left, only 3 teams know their spots, #4 Jazz, #6 Suns, #7 Mavs.

    I really think GS can win out (Suns have nothing to play for, except some remote HC advantages). So, if the Rockets beat the Nuggets tommorrow, GS will be #8.

    Spots #1-3 & #5 are interesting. All you can know is LA will have one of the top 3 spots.
     
  12. Easy

    Easy Boban Only Fan
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    Tomorrow will be the first time in my life rooting for the Lakers. :(
     
  13. BucMan55

    BucMan55 Member

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    Nope. NO is just guaranteed a top 4 seed by virtue of winning the division.


    Look at it this way. If the 1 seed went 60-22 and the next 3 were 57-25, who gets the 2-3-4 seeds? Sure 2 of those 57-25 would be Division winners, but the 3 team TB dictates you use common games between those teams. so why would it be any different for the 1 thru 3 seeds?? There is not a clause that allows the division winner to have the TB automatically over the non division winner. Thats why they go to head to head and conference record and all that.
     
  14. across110thstreet

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    guys, forget tiebreakers...

    just win three games and hope the hornets lose to dallas, the lakers lose to spurs, and the spurs lose to Jazz or Kings.

    its as easy as that scenario to grab the #1 seed on the last night of the season

    There is no way in hell I root for the Lakers tomorrow, by principle alone!
     
  15. ScriboErgoSum

    ScriboErgoSum Member
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    Quite correct. That's why I said.

    Hornets win the division and get the #1 seed. The Spurs are the winningest team that didn't win a division and would have a better record than the Lakers and Jazz, so they get the #2 seed.

    The Rockets would fall to #5 and have HCA over the Jazz.
     
  16. BucMan55

    BucMan55 Member

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    In that scenario the Rockets would also have HCA over a potential matchup with the 3 seeded Lakers.
     
  17. ScriboErgoSum

    ScriboErgoSum Member
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    Yep. That's the thing to keep in mind with the Magic Numbers. They are for the 2 team tie break between the Rockets and each opponent. For home court, if the Magic Number has been closed out, we have HCA even if they are a higher seed. Likewise a team would have HCA over us if their Magic Number was 1 or higher when the season closed even if the Rockets are a higher seed.
     
  18. El Toro

    El Toro Member

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    Well, as I understand it, if those three (HOU, LAL and NO) finished 57-25 in a three way tie, then definitely NO gets the Southwest Divison (they tie with Houston but because they finish at 11-6 in the divison while Houston is 8-8, first place in the division goes to the Hornets), LAL win their Division and Utah wins theirs. The team with the best record who is not a divison winner will then be Houston, so the question is how do you seed the top three knowing the Jazz will place 4th?

    Houston has the tie-break over the Lakers (head-to-head advantage to HOU 2-1), but not against NO (tied head-to-head at 2-2, but lost division record). The Hornets have the tie break against Houston, but not against the Lakers (conference record LAL with 37-15 to NO with 35-17). The Lakers have the tie-break against NO, but not to Houston. I don't even know how this one sorts out but I hope Scribo can fill in the gaps! (I'm sure Scribo already covered this rule somewhere but I forget which page it's on.)

    BTW - Thanks for keeping up with the standings every night there's a big game Scribo! This thread in the GARM has been one of the most looked-forward-to threads at this time of the season. :)
     
  19. BucMan55

    BucMan55 Member

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    1st rule of 3 team tie break is common games between teh 3 tied teams. This case Houston is 4-3, New Orleans is 4-4, and LA is 3-4 so Houston would be number 1. This scenario actually playing out would probably lead to a rule change where a team that wins the division cant be involved in a multiple team TB situation with a team in its same division or something.
     
  20. ScriboErgoSum

    ScriboErgoSum Member
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    Glad everyone's enjoying it. I'm having fun posting all of these results.

    If the Lakers wind up 57-25, that means they have beaten the Spurs on Sunday, so the best the Spurs can do is 56-26. If the Hornets and Rockets are also 57-25, that creates a three team tie.

    The Lakers have won the Pacific, the Jazz have won the Norhtwest, and the Hornets win the Southwest over the Rockets due to a better division record.

    The Rockets get a top 4 seed because they are winningest team that didn't win a division.

    Then it comes time to order the top 4 seeds. Because all 3 teams are tied, 3 team tie break rules are used. The combined record for each team is looked at. The Rockets (4-3) wins that criterion over the Hornets (4-4) and Lakers (3-4). They get the #1 seed. Once the Rockets win that tie break, the Lakers and Hornets use a 2 team tie break to decide their tie. The Lakers win by virtue of a better Conference Record.

    So we're #1, the Lakers are #2, and the Hornets are #3. We would have home court over every team in the conference except the Hornets who win the two team tie break over us by virtue of a better Division Record.

    I really want this scenario to play out. It would be the perfect wrap to this crazy race. A team that didn't win its division is the #1 seed.
     

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