The guy may be a politician, but there is no politics in playing golf. I don't get the appeal either. I personally think they called it golf because all other 4 letter words were already taken (to later be used on the course). But give it up, man. My point is that EVERY GOLF CLUB OUT THERE was segregated. If you wanted to play golf at a public course, you played at an all white club. Hell River Oaks CC was (and I think still is) discriminatory against Jews. Does that make every single member of the club an anti-Senite? No...that's ludicrous. To call somebody a segregationist is a serious charge...in this case I think you have thrown it about recklessly. Let's play the find the most extreme example you can game. Last time I checked nobody ever died from not playing golf. If bin Laden were to acquire all the soap manufacturers, would you condem anybody who continued to bathe? This is just too ridiculous for words. You would if they ALL did. I don't think you know me well enough to level such a charge on my character. To illustrate my point...my father grew up poor in Houston during segregation. He was a student (putting himself through school) at UH in the late 1950s. My dad is as against segregation as any man you'll ever meet. He would tell me stories about people he couldn't do things with because the establishment wouldn't let his friend in. Did my father stop eating lunch at the lunch counters? No...mainly because it was one of the few things he enjoyed that he could afford to do upon occasion? Tell me Achebe, since you are now an expert on character...is my father insensitive to the horrors of segregation? I request that you think before making serious charges like that against one's character...especially when you don't know them or their background.
This bit above, as with the rest of the arguments along this line in this thread, is just plain weak. But this bit is the best stuff I've read from t4. This is all I ask from anyone who's transgressed in the past -- to try and do better in the future. If guilty parties don't have an apology in them, so be it. If they're moving in the right direction, that's good enough for me. If they move backward, they will earn all my contempt. But as long as they're moving forward I won't rub their past mistakes in their faces. Good post t4. Go back and look at the Lott thread again. What you're saying here is all I was saying there. Look. I think whites only clubs are reprehensible. I also think that the idea that those were the only good golf clubs is a lousy excuse for anyone who wants to serve all Americans, or all constituents of any particular state or district. I'd love it if Frist apologized for what I think was a terrible mistake, however much he loved golf. But I don't need that from him. I'm a pragmatist and he's in power. What I want most from him is for him to do better in the future. We both come from guilty parties, guilty parents, guilty heritage re: race. And I'm so grateful for the Lott debacle. It gives us all a chance to move forward in good faith toward equal treatment for all Americans. It won't happen if conservatives continue to excuse past race baiting, whether totally blatant or insiduously subtle. But it also won't happen if we, as Democrats or liberals or whatever, continue to insist that conservatives are incapable of sharing our goals for an equal society. I'm so willing and eager to believe they do. And it's not nearly as important to win the partisan battle as it is to win the larger war against racism and segregation, in all its forms. As I said in the Lott thread, I welcome the new direction from conservatives on race. Let's keep our collective eyes on the prize. We have a great opportunity here.
That's a pretty presumptuous statement. Personally I am the grandson of a tenant farmer from Tennessee. My grandparents worked alongside African-Americans all their lives. In fact those they worked with were the only ones who could understand the conditions my grandparents worked in just to barely survive. That is on my father's side. On my mother's side, my grandfather quit school in the 8th grade to work the farm full time for his alcoholic father...he met my grandmother in that town...they were all also dirt poor. My grandfather then played football while in the army. Most of his military buddies happened to be black...go figure. Maybe that is why my parents and grandparents were so very emphatic in making sure I never exhibited any kind of racism.
Oh...I may add that my dad's side of the family faught on the Union side of the Civil War...my mother's side of the family was still in Germany at the time.
Okay, I left out an "or" Ref. And I'm sure none of your ancestors ever exhibited any racism. You can cast the first stone then. Way to ignore the rest of my post.
I didn't ignore the rest of your post...I simply didn't have anything to add. Personally I admire your willingness to forgive past transgressions and ask only for improvement. It shows the kind of man you are. I knew there was a reason I like you. As for my family...sure there are a few wierdos in Cut-and-Shoot who have racist tendencies...but they are of the second cousin twice removed variety. My grandparents and my parents kept my sister and I away from them intentionally. If any of my family ever exhibited racism...I certainly never saw it. We have always been a small family...but very tight knit. My grandparents (except my paternal grandfather who I never had the pleasure of meeting) were a daily part of my life until the day they died. I had excellent examples of how to live your life.
Batman, I recognize that you're ready to move on. That's honorable. I have to assert, however, that the voices that suggest convenience outweighs morality are, imo, fundamentally flawed. giddyup, I was writing about my 'concerns'. The 'compelling' comment was in reference to t's post... as in t234342343. Did you confuse the 't' with an 'I'. More importantly, did you confuse any of your juvenile arguments for logic? giddyup, from now on you should sit back and let others argue your points. I mean seriously... comparing the hiring policies of the University of Utah with the admissions policies of a bunch of white power dorks in the middle of f***ing Tennessee? Give it up. I would find this interesting, if for no other reason to call those Democrats dirt bags too. Please start a thread if you come across this data (I'm sure there are quite a few of these bozos, personally). Hell, I agree that you should condemn people that continue to bathe in an apocalyptic bin Laden-Ivory soap gihad. Refman, I think that your liberal approach suggests that people are not morally compelled to act, that given both sides of a story they can base their morality on tastes. Like golf? Sure. Who cares if the balls are made from embryonic stem cells? We play golf!! w/ your bin Laden-soap analogy, I'd point out that many of us would argue that we should do away with frivolities (such as the privilege to not smell like swamp ass), in order to crush the enemy. That's part of being a patriot Refman. That's part of living the just life. When you see people that are disenfranchised or pushed away you speak up for your neighbors, or you make sure that your dollars don't contribute to any such horror(s). No, actually I wouldn't. The tragedy, Refman, is that you do not see my point that people can be morally compelled to act or not act because of their ethics. Sometimes people are vegetarians. Sometimes people are moved enough to civilly disobey. Some people do not do something as petty as attending all white golf clubs when they feel as if those groups do not represent their beliefs. I stopped drinking Coke, in my petty symbolic attempt to fight Apartheid. I would argue that your father's food habit is much more meaningful than Frist's golf habit. I see, however, that your counter argument is that your father could have taken bagged lunches, rather than take part in a society that practiced segregation. The fact that he didn't suggests that I have to be rude for just a brief moment, Refman. Hear (read) me out. -- We complain about the poor environment, yet buy large cars. We label ourselves advocates of children yet purchase diamonds that have infracted upon the rights of many children to bare arms. We talk about a lot of things. We talk about whoa are the citizens detained in Southern California. We ponder Ashcroft's disrespect of the Constitution of the United States. We wonder about corporate influence in government, but all we really are a bunch of spineless bastards that don't stand for anything other than our conveniences. I know I have offended you Refman. And for that I apologize. But I honestly know of no other way to convey the point that you are either compelled to act because of what you discern your morals to be, or you are not. If you choose convenience over your ethics, then that describes how "you really feel". I think you recognize this, as you ponder your core values. Think of the things that you would never do. Now pretend there is something as frivolous as golf (interestingly enough, golf isn't frivolous when it comes to business dealings. cute. see how this works? no affirmative action, no blacks in our club to procure business opportunities)... but pretend there is something as frivolous as golf, yet the rules are constructed so that to partake of this activity you have to violate your morals. Which of your morals would you toss aside? Which of your morals would you not toss aside? How do you differentiate between these sets of morals when you partake of this frivolous activity? Is abortion in or out? Is murder in or out? Is pedophilia in or out? Is sexism in or out? Is incest in or out? Is racism in or out? Is animal abuse in or out? Is spousal abuse in or out? Is golf, in or out. Do you think any of the members admit to their Jewish friends that they go to River Oaks? I doubt they could do so without being completely embarrassed (unless I really just have no clue as to the mentality of a golf club, which is more than likely the case... to me its aggrandized putt-putt). To *shudder*, to join a club whose covenants specifically prohibit a population of humanity based on some immutable characteristic (gender/race/etc) to me, is despicable. What kind of lowlife... *sigh*. I'm going to bed.
ps, I would have made the argument that your father would have had a much more difficult time avoiding the food counters than he would a game of golf were I not so tired. It's not to be. nighty night.
I appreciate the apology, but I'm really not offended. I relayed the story in order to explain why I feel as I do regarding this issue. I know they do. The Jews that I know, when told this, don't really even think about it. My wife doesn't, my good friends from law school don't. They understand the dynamics of wanting to play golf at the most exclusive club in Houston. I don't get it. Personally, even if I had all the money in the world I wouldn't buy a house in River Oaks because until 20 to 30 years ago Jews couldn't buy a house in River Oaks. They simply weren't allowed to live there. I don't want to be a member of any club or neighborhood that wouldn't have my wife as a member. I think that's the fundamental problem here. I don't completely understand myself, but I have had avid golfers explain it to me. To the golf fanatic...stopping golf is akin to not breathing anymore. They just can't do it. I have often wondered if the golf balls are laced with heroin or if there is cocaine buried in the sand trap...it's that kind of fanaticism that makes people who are ordinarily the most upstanding and moral people I know act totally out of character.
