it seems to draw a distinction between smokey and jacob as two different entities...maybe the good versus evil scenario. if smokey was previously manifesting as the man in black, then does that mean the man in black was an actual person who died and smokey assumed him as a manifestation? i would think so. on the other hand, jacob was a real person the man in black couldn't physically kill without having a real person he could manipulate do it for him. then, jacob actually does die but, since he's not really human and some kind of entity himself who can live in a physical body versus a manifestation, he needs a physical body to come back before it dies so he can come back as a real human (assuming what A00man says is true). but, jacob can also appear as a ghost manifestation that isn't really there to whomever he wants as needed...maybe only when he is not living in a real human. is richard just a regular human that doesn't age who is a jacob follower? two different entities fighting each other...each with his own set of rules as to how they need to do their own business in their battle against each other.
Other people not seen on the plane: Michael Walt (although that'd be really hard to film) Ana Lucia Libby Mr. Eko Nikki Paulo All of them, except Walt, died on the island. And if Michael is dead in this alternate reality, he can't go to Australia to pick up Walt. Maybe that means something. But then again, Boone, Arzt, Frogurt, and Charlie died and they were on the plane so maybe it's not that simple.
During their pilgrimmage to the statue, Flocke asked Richard why he never seemed to age and Richard said that "Jacob did this to me". So it seems to me that Richard's quasi-immortality (can still die, just doesn't age) was given to him by Jacob and is something different than what was done to Ben and Sayid.
Was Hurley just being sarcastic when he said that nothing bad ever happens to him? I am confused because on the plane Locke also lied about going onto the pilgrimage, for a while there I thought Locke could still walk in this alternate reality. Desmond's disappearance is big, I think he is flashing through both realities, similar to how he was in "The Constant".
In this reality, Mr. Cluck's was never hit by a meteor because he's still owns the company. Presumably, the other bad stuff that happened to him didn't happen either. So I think he's telling the truth. <object width="560" height="340"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/XlhkqAwEgvQ&hl=en_US&fs=1&rel=0"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/XlhkqAwEgvQ&hl=en_US&fs=1&rel=0" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="560" height="340"></embed></object> <object width="560" height="340"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/QYViwUbjm54&hl=en_US&fs=1&rel=0"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/QYViwUbjm54&hl=en_US&fs=1&rel=0" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="560" height="340"></embed></object>
Just watched it last night, I thought it was pretty awesome to start the season off this way... though these two episodes were the weirdest episodes in the whole Lost chapter.
i guess i'll try my stabs on last night's episode not sure if it should be spoilered since its all just speculation now that the episode is over the bomb did work as juliette indicated we know this because of the 'alternate timeline' that is being shown. Desmond is on the plane because since the swan blew up there would never be the switch and so forth so desmond would have never been on the island. Now desmond being on the same plane could have been mere coincidence. as for the alternate time/realities it had to be done the time jumpers were dropped back in 2007 I think its a bit weird but it had to be done...had they died there with the bomb destroying the swan which now created the new alternate reality...but had the original timeline/reality NOT continued then the swan would have never been destroyed and the plane would have also crashed in the alternate reality. hence the jump in 2007 i think the island now is in its own time/reality separate from the rest of the world. unlike before when it was just shifting in time I had a suspicion that 'smokey' was locke before the season 5 finale last year of course it was confirmed last night. Richard probably was a slave on the black rock that landed. I think a decision was probably made to most of the inhabitants to either follow jacob or smokey richard probably decided to follow smokey but then betrayed smokey when jacob offered more (eternal youth/life?) somewhere along the line smokey must have been subdued by jacob and forced to be subservient because it didnt seem most of the original others/temple others really had fear of the smoke monster I may be remembering wrong but I dont believe Dharma encountered smokey either. Smokey probably always inhabited the dead bodies on the island...Christian, Yemi. While he can clearly kill on his own it looks like he tries to inhabit bodies to use that may have had some sort of deficiency/corruption in them. Ecko though he had a sinful past clearly had repented and was a completely different person since then so thats why nothing really happened to him when he saw smokey and why smokey killed him in rage. Which brings me to Sayid....I think Smokey while powerful in his "smoke" state probably cannot stay in it for too long without possibly dying himself (too unstable) and hence has to possess a body. His ability/strengths within the body is greatly reduced depending on the abilities/will of its former owner. So while he was inhabiting John Locke he had to confirm to the will of what John would have done. John would never kill jacob or anyone else for that matter for personal gain. But as John he could manipulate the other people (like ben and Jack) to do his bidding...thats why he had even Richard tell the actual John Locke he would have to die. (and I could be just rambling at this point) Sayid clearly was a hardened person and even mention his past sins when he was dying to Hurley. He tortured/killed countless people he didnt know what waited for him in the after life but whatever it was he deserved it. Jacob knew if Sayid died and Smokey was able to take his body then Smokey would be near unstoppable being basically able to do whatever he wants since he would be able to kill in his human form. And nothing could stop him. When Jacob's bodyguards tried to shoot at FLocke it seem lik the bullet just bounced off of him (the guy picks up what appears to me a malformed bullet) Taking him to the temple to revive him in the water was the only choice...I think the one thing where the Losties may have messed up is trying to save Juliet first before going to the temple. Jacob made it sound that it was urgent but Hurley didnt emphasize it to the others (though I dont think any of the Losties would have listened to Hurley anyway). Maybe Hurley didnt truly believe in Jacob just yet (not sure if he still does) The water turning red is just because of Jacob's death and the longer the time passes the less effective the water becomes..so maybe the Japanese guy would have been able to heal his hand had he kept in the water longer, but maybe in the past when the water was clear it was near instantaneous. I dont think anyone knew that the water turning red was because of Jacob's death, they probably all knew something was wrong so when Hurley told them it was news to them now the ash has major significance as to why it was being used. to keep smokey away..Jacob used it on his cabin in the previous season. I had believed that it was a way to keep jacob in but it was to keep smokey out while Jacob was in a weakened state (wasnt he in a chair strapped at the time?) not sure if it is a specific type of ash (maybe the ash of smokey's original body??) that is being used, but it seems that there is too much of it for it to come from one body. Luckily for them Sayid did survive though it took a lot longer...something will have changed with Sayid (maybe the change in voice was just that indicator of that) i think that was more of the 'risk' that they were mentioning than Sayid dying. Sayid would have come back different...much like how Richard told Kate and Sawyer in the past that if he saved young Ben via the temple that he wouldnt be the same body again. Back at the statue when Richard sees both Ben (who at this point does hate jacob and while he doesnt know/understand Smokey he will obey smokey since smokey clearly is now the most powerful entity on the island) and FLocke he knows something is wrong, but I think that Richard may have thought that Smokey was harmless OR he didnt know Smokey was the other guy who was with Jacob when they first landed on the island because he expressed actual fear and recognition when he realized who FLocke really was. It sounds like the power struggle between smokey and jacob must have happened right when the Black Rock landed and smokey losing the battle. Now the part when FLocke says "you've all disappointed me" I am not sure if he means that they actually failed him right there or if it goes back to the original conversation we saw in the season 5 finale where he and Jacob are having the conversation about people and how they are useless etc. I think he was upset that maybe Jacob was proven right and that he was wrong? That part confused me a bit I need to go re-watch the conversation that the two had in the season 5 finale to try ot help shed some more light on it. sorry for the long write up comment away if you like
When Ilana's group reached the cabin, they said that Jacob hadn't been there in a long time and that someone else had been using it. My guess is that we've never seen Jacob in the cabin. We pretty much know that whenever we've seen Christian, it's Smokey. So it was Smokey in the Cabin with Claire. And neither Locke nor Ben actually saw anybody on their first visit to the cabin.
you're right so thats probably why everyone was so scared they probably believe smokey was still trapped in the cabin until someone drew that line in the ash to release him and smokey probably went back and forth that way and probably the Others/temple ppl thought he was still trapped in there
I think that the youth fountain only works when Jacob is alive (in someone's body). Whats also important to note is that I doubt that Jacob has the same powers as Smokey (being able to transform into a dead body), because since the beginning, Jacob has always had the same physical aspect, we have NO PROOF that he can transform himself like smokey. It would make sense though. One thing interesting though is that we could think that Smokey was incarnating himself in Mr Eko's brothers body, however, whats with the HORSE that Kate meets, since it was never dead? How did it get there!
My takes, and apologies if I reiterate something already said. I won't pretend that any thoughts of mine are uniquely novel. Just consider these my "votes" I like what they did with the bomb. All last season there was fights over whether or not they could alter the past, and one of the better points against it was creating a paradox (if they prevent the crash, they can't go back in time to prevent the crash). By splitting off a divergent timeline (a la Back to the Future), the plan succeeded, BUT the survivors can't follow along that timeline - they remain on their own fixed line and go back to the present. I'll tread carefully with what did/didn't change because of the island, since some changes were done for real world reasons - Maggie Grace declined to appear, so Shannon was explained away. That said, with Jughead sending the Island to the bottom of the ocean in 1977, we can safely assume: Ben, Widmore, Hawking, Faraday, Penny, and Richard are either dead or were not born. Jacob and Nemesis are probably dead but not for certain (Jacob at least hopped off island at times). Miles should exist if he was actually evacuated on the sub, but I forget if we got proof positive. The Island was the source of Hurley's bad luck I think there were several poignant lines and symbolic moments in the episode: Rose telling Jack he could "let go now", shades of Christian telling Michael he could "go now", and probably referring to Jack placing himself into the hands of others rather than trying to control everything. Jack restating the airline's quote about his father being "in transit" - almost certainly a double meaning. His father's soul is in transition: limbo to an ascension? Dogan cracking Jacob's Ankh in half - along the lines of a communion breaking of bread (this is my body, broken for you), since the Ankh represents everlasting life. Richard imploring Team Ilana to not shot not-Locke. Team Bram was cut down after firing, which seems to suggest that not-Locke Smokey has to be provoked (or summoned) to kill. "I want to go home" - as several people are saying, what does not-Locke mean by home? What goes down after or what needs to go down for him to "go home" For the moment, I'll withhold judgment on whether Sayid is Sayid or if he's something/someone else. I will say that I don't think the Lazarus Pool worked at all (Jacob's death - water is no longer clear, no longer heals). I personally think Hurley brought him back, and that Hurley is the most likely to be the reincarnation/second coming of Jacob.
The question now is, where are we going in the last 16 episodes. What is the conclusion, what gives us resolution to the story? I think it's clear that LA-X has to come into play, and I'd put forth a theory that detonating Jughead has already won the war between Jacob and Nemesis. If the point of the Island is to hold Nemesis at bay, and Jacob is his keeper, than sinking it and them pre-prevents Nemesis from finding and exploiting his loophole, at the cost of Jacob. The series has been centered on endless cycles, and the only way to end a cycle is to break it, which is what happened with the divergent timeline. If I'm right, the LA-X folks are not going to eventually go to the other reality's Island to save the day. We'd be seeing all season, unawares, through them, the "happy ending" Jacob put into play. Just a random idea.
hmm i am not too positive yet on the FLocke part, maybe Richard knew something was wrong when the flare was shot off but it wasnt until FLocke got closer Richard realized he was smokey/nemesis. I am trying to think when Eko was killed if he provoked smokey then. The "I want to go home" is a huge part of the Lost mythos makes me wonder if both jacob and smokey were from sort of afterlife/underworld/heaven type place and were banished to earth for some reason... I too think Hurley will be the reincarnation of Jacob but wouldnt that make the water clear again? Did Hurley become the 'chosen one' as soon as Jacob died? I can sort of understand Hurley being able to see Jacob It could be must like how in Avatar the airbender how Aang sees visions of past avatars to help guide him. but considering the history/mythology of the island I would at least be led to believe that the Temple people would have some sort of prophecy/idea of what would happen when Jacob passes. damn this show got me addicted again I will re-watch the episode tonight to try to pick up things i didnt catch on the first viewing
Semi-spoiler Spoiler I read an interview with Darlton where they said we should question whether it was Jughead that sank the island or something else.
Okay, so maybe it really was only Hurley who's past was affected by the island. He won the lottery because he used the numbers he heard from an ex-Navy guy at a mental institution, who heard Rousseau's message on repeat. That's a pretty big effect the island had on his life. Of course with the numbers came the curse, so that explains how his luck has changed However, in the new reality Rousseau's message would have never been made, and thus Hurley would have never heard the numbers to use on the lottery. So how did he still manage to win it? Maybe there's a destiny thing at play? You can change the future, but not by much? Maybe they'll have an episode showing flashbacks of how Hurley's life went without the cursed numbers. The only reason he went to Sydney in the first place was to visit the Navy partner who he thought could help him get rid of the curse. One other character I thought was different on the airplane was John. He seemed happier and more optimistic than he did the first go 'round. The way he consoled Jack made him sound like island-John, rather than the bitter person he was before he crashed on the island. Wouldn't be surprised if John's injury was caused in a different kind of accident in the new reality. I didn't notice any difference in anyone else. I know some other characters had contact with island people beforehand (I think Richard visited John as a boy, and maybe a few others), but I don't remember anything that would significantly alter the course of their life.
Also, John appears to have gone on the walkabout in the alternate timeline, wasn't sure if that was true or if John was just lying about it and events had played out as before.
Something I noticed. In the plane, when the turbulence begins, Rose told Jack that it is normal. HOWEVER, in the pilot it was the other way around.
I'll bet Hurley played different numbers. If you want to know why Hurley was in Australia, look at the first video I posted on this page.
