Oski - thanks for putting your spoiler out the way you did. I absolutely do not want to find out Ben's fate, so thanks for the way you labeled the spoiler. A Separate Reality - title aside, the book doesn't seem to deal much with alternate realities as they would seemingly apply to Ben killed/Ben not killed divergent timelines. It's more about taking spirit walks via peyote - more a nod to what Locke did to Boone with the green paste in S1. But I will admit to not being fully vested in the book. It's also possible that the title itself was indeed a hint being dropped on us. I do believe Ben is dead dead: -When Locke got shot, many were all over the fact (that same night/next morning) that he was shot in the kidney, a kidney that he no longer had. If there's an easy out, I don't see it. -People are ridiculously fast healers on the island, but I don't think we've ever had an instance of someone bouncing back from a bullet to the chest. That's tended to be the most popular guarantee kill in the series. -Ben's dialogue with Sayid at the beginning of the episode could of been foreshadowing: "you can kill people that others can't." Sayid can supercede the island? -The Island may not be protecting anymore (both up and down the timeline, which is a hoot to think about). The Donkey Wheel and Christian seem to stand outside of linear time, so I don't think it's an impossible stretch. The Island gave Benry a tumor, and now Benry's come back to the island after being expelled. Maybe this is a consequence? He flies back, so the island shoots 5 of the oc6 to 1977 to off him? I dunno. -As to the paradoxes, one thought is time is a loop that can not be broken. BUT - breaking the cycle is one of the biggest story arcs of all time, including the famous example of Jesus, who gets a bit of mention in this show. Either the Lostaways have to fulfill the loop, or their destiny is to break the cycle. -Further on paradoxes, the show has alluded to Back to the Future a couple of times. That trilogy (mainly in #2) went with divergent timelines as a consequence of messing with the past, not inevitability. I want to say Star Trek (now being mentioned more and more instead of Star Wars, thanks to JJ's helming the new film) also went with divergent timelines. The timeline we knew (Benry & the Purge) and perhaps a new, parallel timeline being created (no Benry, no Purge?, boarded up Barracks in 2007?). When we know for sure (again, I'm not the spoiler type) what Ben's fate is, we'll probably know which route the show's taking. The Tim Heller scene, courtesy of my Austin friends: Hurley talks about Sayid being in the slammer. Hurley and Jack mention they know about Juliet/Sawyer, giving Kate a sad. Nothing too big. Evan
I just remember that in the episode about what happened to Locke how he got dead and all that, in that episode Ceasar showed John a house where all the injured from the crash were,didn't we see a dead Ben lying there??
I don't believe that the show would spend many instances talking about how you can't change the past and then completely blow that up. The rules of time have been set by Faraday since the beginning of season 4. Then there is the paradox. Without Ben, Sayid would have never turned into a murderer. Which means he would have never been caught by that woman, and he would have never gone back to the island, so he wouldn't have been able to kill Ben in the first place. How can Sayid kill Ben if he never lived to meet Sayid at all? Unless we get into the whole parallel universes thing, I don't see how it would work without Lost being 5 times more confusing. In conclusion: Ben is not dead. I would be 100% surprised if we found out otherwise.
Actually this is why I'm frustrated...because there are rules and the show has bounced right through them. For all the talk about not being able to change history, Desmond eventually opened the hatch, right?
I thought Desmond was the guy that worked outside the time line and only he could change things. If Desmond had shot young Ben, then he'd be dead. As it is, Sayid can't work that way: I say Ben is not dead.
Max - it's a tough show to keep up with. I'm as much a LOST geek as anyone, and even I find myself having to review things and rewatch episodes a bunch. Even with Lostpedia, there's too much to keep up with at times. Myself, I love that about this show - it's literally epic. But I can't fault anyone that is overwhelmed or turned off by how demanding the show can be. The basics, as far as I understand them: Faraday and (his mom) Eloise Hawking promote the closed loop theory of time travel - what happened, happened. If you travel into the past, you can't alter events. If your mind is "unchained from time" and you know the future, you can't alter it (significantly), either. Charlie had to die. Kid Charlotte has to grow up and return to the island and die. Sawyer had to interrupt the Michelle Dressler kidnapping because Ethan had to be born. Daniel had to intervene with Jughead, because (to be seen when someone nukes the island????). There does seem to be leeway, though: -Faraday tells Desmond that he's special and the rules don't apply to him. -Desmond prevented Charlie's death several times, allowing him to turn off the Looking Glass jamming system and thus allowing the freighter guys to arrive.* -Just because Desomnd is special, it doesn't disallow someone else to be special. -If this was a hard and fast rule, why would Hawking spend an entire episode trying to convince Desmond that he's not allowed to change his past (propose to Penny instead of going to the island)? Why do I need to talk you into something that is inevitable? I can believe either fate with Ben. Ben's not dead: -The island has shown it's a fantastic death-preventer and healer when it's not done with someone. -Endless Cycle theory demands that Ben be around so that the timeline that we know unfolds. Ben's Dead: -Ben designated Sayid as special (not necessarily in the same way as Desmond) in the beginning of the episode when he stated "you can kill people others can't" - why he needed Sayid to kill Widmore's people for him. Maybe Sayid can supercede the Island's protection. -Gun jams have been the way the Island's nixed kills in the past (gun did not jam), and IIRC no one's survived a square bullet in the chest so far (Libby, Anna Lucia, Ethan, Rousseau & Karl, Sayid's German GF, half the Others, etc). -Cycles are made to be broken. There's only one of two ways this show concludes, either by completing the endless cycle or by breaking it. I am firmly in the break it camp.** -The boarded up Barracks processing building that Sun and Frank arrived at looked strikingly different to me than most of the Other buildings had looked - I think it could be a clue that the Island timeline has diverged. -We've seen evidence that the Donkey Wheel and Christian exist outside of time itself (Locke turned it in the distant past "after" Ben turned it around NYE 2004). It only stands to reason that Jacob and the Island (the sentient spirit of it, or what have you) also stand outside of time. If the Island's through with Ben, maybe it does allow him to die as a child "this time around." Mind****, admittedly. Finally, one last thing about Desmond - I think Faraday did alter the past when he talked to him in at the hatch, leading to Desmond "dreaming it." The interesting thing is, it hasn't altered anything we've seen so far. Desmond didn't join the returning Oc6, Desmond did not help the Oc6 return. The only thing this likely caused was the apparent death of Penny and/or baby Charlie (and possibly Desmond). I think Desmond almost has to go back to Hawking and get himself back to the Island to go after Benry (probably with Team Widmore in tow). Evan * - it's plausible that this was an instance of Desmond altering the established (the future is already determined) timeline. If his visions of Charlie were "the real" future and he altered them, then Charlie wasn't supposed to unjam the radio frequencies and the Oc6 DID buck their destiny by leaving. ** - The show has made no secret of the Chrisitian themes and symbolism. The biggest thing about Christ is that he broke the cycle of the old Testament. The Hebrews got high on their horse, forgot about God, subsequently were enslaved (Egypt, Babylonia, Romans, etc), they refound God and were delivered out and were free again. Breaking that cycle was one of the key things about Jesus.
Desmond couldn't open the hatch door when Sawer/Juliet/etc... were there because he didn't remember them when he met them in 2004. Daniel explained that because Desmond didn't meet them until 2004, it was impossible for them to meet him before then. Therefore, he knew Desmond wouldn't open the hatch door. But because Desmond had never met Daniel in 2004, it was possible that Desmond would open the door if only Daniel were there. Now, Daniel did tell Desmond that the rules didn't apply to him. And Desmond didn't remember any of this until 2008. So, Daniel was able to change the past without creating a paradox (as Desmond meeting Sawyer in 2001 would have been). And as a direct result of Faraday changing the past to meet Desmond, Desmond didn't remember the incident until the present. It seems to me that you are able to change the past, but only in a way that avoids creating a paradox. Daniel giving a message to Desmond doesn't create a paradox. Sayid killing Ben does.
Open to interpretation, but it's my belief that Daniel was mainly trying to get everyone else out of there so that he alone got a chance to talk with Desmond and alter the future. Note how he lied to Charlotte later about what he was doing. What I came away with: Desmond didn't answer the door when Sawyer knocked...because Sawyer never met Desmond (established timeline theory). BUT had he kept knocking, Desmond probably would have come out. Desmond did answer when Faraday knocked, partially because Desmond is special and can step outside off the established timeline. I don't believe Desmond "always" met Faraday then, because he "dreamed" the meeting in 2007.
IMO, it will go down as the greatest Sci Fi ever done. Think of X-files, only sharper, smarter, bigger, with more continuity rather than episodic. You have to commit to the show and be ready to invest not only the time in watching it all, but to invest mentally as well. If you watch it all in one marathon viewing, you're absolutely going to sell yourself short on the show. It demands that you stop and think about it one show at a time. If you do watch it all at once, watch it with a notebook handy. Seriously. Evan
Yes, oh yes, yes definitely. Be sure to watch from episode 1 of season 1. It is the only way it makes sense. I highly suggest Netflixing the DVD's. It is the best way to watch the show.
Just watch the first 5 episodes of season 1(or up until 'Confidence Man' one of my favs). If you are not hooked, don't bother watching the rest, but if you are hooked you'd be able to watch the rest of the episodes really quickly, and enjoy them.
