How quickly people turn form hate to love. What about the playoff game against Barkley and the Suns. Barks clutching his throat in a choke like gesture. He was hated by all Rocket fans at that time. Mario saved the day. Sure Barkley put up big numbers in his career, but isn't the object of this great game to win?
and another thing, talking about character, what kind of man spits on another. Was he brought up in a barn or what?
I don't know about everyone else (okay, I do know there are some people here who are with me on this...) but when a guy who is not known for talking trash about people actually says something, it ought to carry more weight, and is most likely true. Clyde has never really been all that vocal about teammates or players on opposing teams. Chuck, on the other hand, never missed an opportunity throughout his career to publicly belittle players from the opposing team, criticize his own teammates, and just generally talk out of his you-know-what (i.e. complaining about Elie and Drexler in Sports Illustrated, talking trash about Robert Horry, spitting on fans, cussing constantly, etc...). Yet, when DREXLER finally says something, everyone freaks out. It's OK for Barkley to go on and on and insult people, throw them thru windows, whatever (does anyone remember who was there defending the Chuckster in the media after that incident?? It was Clyde!). I think, if anything, you should pay more attention when Drexler speaks, because it's OUT of character for him to say something, which means it probably carries more weight. Pippen is known for his trash talking and general bad attitude, and he chose a very poor way to say it, but Drexler said it how it should have been said in the first place. Barkley has never worked hard in his whole career, just running on pure talent. Yet he always wants to be the one to call everyone else out when they do something he doesn't like. Jordan said it himself, that Charles would never win a ring because he lacked dedication. Why didn't anyone go off on Jordan?? Because he was right. Drexler said the same thing. Except that Drexler also has played with Charles and seen first hand how he is a hypocrite when it comes to his work ethic. Guys like Jordan, Drexler, they spend their whole off season working out. In his prime, Hakeem did the same thing. Until the last year, the Chuckster didn't work out at all during the offseason. The other thing, and I can see Clyde's point, is that before Chuck showed up in Houston, we had won two championships. Clyde and Hakeem had carried us there. As soon as Barkley shows up, the little things like defensive intensity and team chemistry slowly but surely fall apart. Is that coincidence???? I don't think so. Drexler should be applauded for being man enough to tell it like it is, and for being man enough to keep his trap shut long enough to win a ring, something his good friend the Round Mound couldn't seem to do.
I'm in total agreement with BobFinn* and Axeman. What goes around.... Has anyone figured out what was Barkley's motive for criticizing Iverson? Thinking about that, I think I've lost some respect for Barkley for childishly calling Iverson (ME,MYSELF and I-verson) LOL
If Drexler was playing for the team and had said that, it would be unacceptable. Only because he is not in the NBA and is taking a different view is he able to justly criticize Barkley. I do believe, however, that Drexler could have avoided the question. Barkley's response was good in that it did not openly criticize Drexler. The question is not a comparison of the two and their past and present. It's a question of what possessed Drexler to say it. He could have left a few parts out (i.e. the Pippen deal). Not to justify Barkley's acts, but his spitting on a fan was a provoked response, although his slimey projectile hit the wrong individual. Spitting on someone is a response that words can't give. It's a signal of a person reaching the low point and is typically used for bridge burning. Spitting in today's culture may seem odd, but through out the ages it has been used as a sign of disgust. Anyway, the point is Drexler may have been off base, but still rightly criticized him only because he's not with the Rockets. The fairness is up to whoever is viewing it. That's all I have to say about that.
So what if Barkley cusses constantly. I remember Drexler doing plenty of cussing in his day. And he really did low ball Jake O'Donnell out of the league which was a little extreme in my opinion. Jake is still regarded as one of the all time best officials by a lot of players and coaches. Drexler is a good guy. No Doubt about it. But he does have his faults like a lot of people. Drexler has a small inferiority complex. He wasn't highly recruited out of high school. He didn't get selected in the lottery and most notably didn't get selected by the Rockets in 1983. He's been in the shadows of legions of great players throughout the 80's and 90's. He realizes he's known as a 2nd tier superstar during his career. He didn't appreciate be the last selection for the original Dream Team. And he wasn't too happy when he was relegated to be the 3rd wheel when Barkley came along. And his last 2 years in Houston were a little disappointing as he let his pride come before the team a little too often. And it affected the play of the team. Drexler was the one who gave the ultimatum to the Rockets that they had to choose between him or Barkley. Barkley is not the real person at fault here. And if Drexler wants to complain about Barkley slacking off on his off-season conditioning for the majority of his career until just recently, then I guess he's going to have to make the same criticism for Hakeem Olajuwon. Hakeem is notorious for doing his oversee tours and coming back to camp out of shape. His poor off season conditioning was the reason why Hakeem was and is known for his slow starts at the beginning of the year. Lenny Wilkens during the practices for the Olympic team made some grumblings about how Mitch Richmond and Hakeem Olajuwon were the 2 players that were out of shape. He never pointed out Barkley. Sure, Barkley is quick to criticize players on mostly other teams. But he's just as quick to accept the blame for the loss, compliment his teammates for their play, and backing up his teammates when the media and fans criticize them. Do you ever remember Drexler accepting the blame for the loss? To give a perfect example of the two, just look during the 1997 playoffs. When Barkley missed two critical free throws in game 4 against Seattle, he was the first to admit how he was willing to accept the blame and how glad he was that his teammates picked him up with the win at the end. During game 6 against Utah, Clyde tried to take Byron Russell with too much time left on the clock and allowed Stockton to have enough time to bury the dagger. That was an incredibly bone-headed move and after the game all you heard Clyde say how he was held by Malone on the screen for Stockton's shot. Never mention how it was his fault that he tried to be the hero and cost the Rockets the game. All he made was excuses. Both players provided us with great memories. It's a shame that a classy guy had to take the low road this time around.
thank you Da Man. In a different thread (same topic) I got into a discussion w/ someone about that same last shot. It had totally escaped me about the play immediately before. It seems that those who choose to side w/ Clyde over Charles are 'choosing not to apply the same standards upon Clyde as they do Charles'. When Clyde shot 2-13 in Utah in game 5 of 98, I didn't say a word. The Rockets had lost, and a great-one was retiring. Had that same player been Charles, how many of you would have followed suit? If you already have decided upon your conclusion, what the hell do you need any reasoning for?
"And if Drexler wants to complain about Barkley slacking off on his off-season conditioning for the majority of his career until just recently, then I guess he's going to have to make the same criticism for Hakeem Olajuwon." Dude, give me a break. The problem is that Barkley slacked off his whole career, whereas Hakeem achieved the ultimate level and then began to show signs of age. But the point is, when you keep your mouth shut and show others respect, as Hakeem learned to do many years ago, people aren't so quick to try and tear you down. Barkley's brought this on himself. "Sure, Barkley is quick to criticize players on mostly other teams. But he's just as quick to accept the blame for the loss, compliment his teammates for their play..." Yeah, like when he was putting down the "young guys" on the team who were "more interested in pagers and cell phones than in basketball..." (or something to that effect). For me, this time without Barkley has been the most fun to watch in years. No more BS antics, no more cussing every two seconds, or boneheaded (albeit sometimes VERY funny) quotes after every game. Now, we can just get back to Rocketball -- simply shutting up and playing the game. That's what wins championships (see '94 - '95 Rockets for an example).
"Yeah, like when he was putting down the "young guys" on the team who were "more interested in pagers and cell phones than in basketball..." (or something to that effect)." It's that even a criticism that matters. That's just the common prevailing attitude that all of the elder statesman are saying. Jordan, Magic, Isiah, Barkley, and Drexler are all in the same boat on that one. If you want to nitpick, I'll give you a paraphrase that Clyde used to described his Cougar Basketball. "There are only 5 or 6 guys on this team that actually want to be better players. Most of the guys on my team are Division III caliber players." Now, i would quantify that as a harsh criticism. Now my original comment was about how Bark would be quick to take blame, take off the pressure, and give out compliments to his teammates. Example one: During the 1996-1997 season, the media and fans were screaming about how the Rockets needed better guard play. Barkley was the vehement about how he was ready to go to war with our young point guards and we didn't need to make a trade for an upgrade. End result: Matt Maloney plays well throughout the year and has an unbelievable series against Seattle. Example 2: We all know about last year and how Barkley took a lot of pride about how well Dickerson, Mobley, and Drew were playing. Example 3: This year! WE all know the story by now about how Barkley has been the best possible kind of influence you can have for a young team. Example 4: Before game 7 in the Seattle series in 97, Barkley emphatically guaranteed that the Rockets will win after the Rockets blew their 3-1 series advantage. I can't possibly overstate how wonderful this tatic worked. The Rockets were seriously feeling the pressure of possibly choking again. Barkley understood this and made the comment to divert as much attention as possible onto him. The result: the Rocks came out playing loose and built a huge lead. Example 5: Predicted before the 1998 playoff series against the Jazz that the Rockets would win. Right then and there, he established an aura of confidence with his teammates. I know the Rocks came into the series with some major apprehensions. They finished the season only 2 games above .500 with an 8th seed. They looked old, lethargic, and pathetic for most of the year. They were also playing a nemesis in Utah that had beaten them pretty soundly in last years' playoffs. They got blown out of almost every game against Utah that year. Barkley comes out in that first game playing like a madman who had found the fountain of youth. The Rockets controlled and dominated much of the series until Barks' fatal injury. Think about this, how many teammates did Barkley actually criticize in public while they were playing together? I can't think of one. How many teammates has Barkley praised in public? A lot. Oh yeah, I forgot to talk about the Hakeem thing. "The problem is that Barkley slacked off his whole career, whereas Hakeem achieved the ultimate level and then began to show signs of age." Um, didn't you get my message about how Hakeem has been a slow starter throughout his career because he doesn't train hard in the off season. It happened in the 80's and it happened in the 90's. Hakeem slacking off in the offseason is not a recent phenomenon, even though the last two years he has picked up his training. Hakeem's new personal trainer/track coach said it best when he commented that if Hakeem had worked as hard as he does now in the off season when he was younger, people might be talking about Hakeem being the best basketball player of this generation instead of Jordan. It's true. If Hakeem or Barkley had the kind of work ethic that MJ had, there's no telling how good they could have become. So technically they are in the same boat and should probably be subjected to the same criticism. Instead, Barkley alone gets singled out by Drexler. [This message has been edited by Da Man (edited February 11, 2000).]
my own view on drexler has been well-documented in this forum, always followed up by another's ringing endorsement of his community status and what a good guy he is. he is clintonian in character; smooth, politially adroit and wonderfully adept at charming the public with sweet nothings... while the hot lights and cameras are upon him. Outside of that realm he's a surly a jerk as you will find. Mall employees concur; opposing basketball teams/fans concur as well. with him, good citizenship is a means to an end, to be practiced only when publicity is inevitable. that someone would hold him accountable for his everyday public demeanor has escaped him somehow, as well as quite a few readers/contributors here.
Nobody turned from love to hate. But people (me included) were especially disappointed that Clyde would re-open old wounds (very old at that). I really don't have much else to add, Da Man pretty much added what else should be heard. Besides, many conveniently ignored most my points and themes in their tirades anyway (on second thought, though it may be piling on a bit a this point, but I wanted to point ignored arguments so I have put the edits below). Question: Why isn't anyone posting on how they lost respect for Jordan when he described Barkley? Answer from before “did he have a problem with MJ or Karl's comments? absolutely not because they are his friends and he knows they want him to succeed (a bit of motivation statements, shouldn’t your friends do this for you?). What Pippen and Clyde did have no inherent positive motivation underneath…” Question: Jordan said it himself, that Charles would never win a ring because he lacked dedication. Why didn't anyone go off on Jordan?? Answer from before-same as for the previous question. Point: I don't know about everyone else (okay, I do know there are some people here who are with me on this...) but when a guy who is not known for talking trash about people actually says something, it ought to carry more weight, and is most likely true. Clyde has never really been all that vocal about teammates or players on opposing teams. Counterpoint from before: “they usually are some of the more retracted or isolated types I mentioned before, which makes it worse that when they say things like that it because it clearly serves no other purpose than an intentional, petty, & childish slam at others’ characters. If you haven't notice Chuck hasn't said much about Pippen or Clyde (or Hakeem being a "baby" as pointed out) sense they left (no longer impact him, or the team), yet the others persist, and in Clyde's case, years later. You tell me which shows more about these guys character.” Has anyone figured out what was Barkley's motive for criticizing Iverson? Thinking about that, I think I've lost some respect for Barkley for childishly calling Iverson (ME,MYSELF and I-verson). Answer: My understanding is they have moved on (the people actually involved in the verbal spat), why shouldn’t you? [This message has been edited by sir scarvajal (edited February 11, 2000).]
I'd like to address a couple of comments that I've read in this thread about Drexler, one that he wasn't as 'clutch' as Barkley, another that he's known as a '2nd tier superstar'. Both are way off. Clyde, as the lone superstar on his team (Portland), was an NBA Finalist twice, Barkley only once. If he's 2nd tier, so is Barkley. As far as who's more clutch, who would you rather have at the free throw line in the last two minutes of a close game, Barkley or Drexler?
Sir, I brought up Jordan and Karl's comments because the original poster said that what Drexler said was innacurate. Whether they were appropriate or not is one thing, but it's extremely difficult to question the validity of his statements.
If you want a guy at the free thow line that would mean Mullin and EJ are as "clutch as you get". From the superstars since Bird and Magic, if a game was one the line I would want the ball in the following players hands, in this order (if you take them at thier peak): Jordan, Hakeem, Duncan, Barkley, Malone. The order of the last 3 could be debated (I put Duncan their simply because he won a title), but no reasonable person would put Clyde in this category. Still, Clyde was a great player and superstar nontheless. He has a good argument for being the 2nd best overall shooting guard from 85 to 95, though it is a huge, huge, dropoff between #1 and #2.
I agree their is at least a kernal of truth in the statements, but I don't think validity is the key issue. After all, Barkley's comments about Iverson (remember both of them seem to have gotten over their barbs) and others likely have a kernal of truth as well. The main issue to me is that Karl and MJ were his friends and said them with Barkley's interests at stake, Pip and Clyde's appear to have a quite different intent, especially as one set of comments are after it looks like Barkley has retired and the issue is like 3 years dead. I don't seem Barkley slamming Bird or McHale or MJ or Dr. J or Clyde or Pippen now that they are not playing or not part of the team. In this case to me context means everything. If Barkley now goes on a tirade about how he didn't get a ring because Hakeem tried less hard after he got married, or it was all Brent's fault for not staying healthy (both obviously ludicrus statements), or if Barkley continued disparaging comments about others years later I would be dissappointed in him as well. [This message has been edited by sir scarvajal (edited February 11, 2000).]
Sir, I guess you missed the '94 and '95 playoff runs. Barkley had numerous chances to beat us, but could not deliver against single coverage by Robert Horry. Watching any of those two series, I was never worried that he would hit the big shot either. If anyone was going to beat us, it would've been KJ. You can put up great numbers all you want, but producing in the last two minutes is all that matter when it comes down to it. Obviously I'm not saying that free-throw shooting is the only thing. The fact is that Barkley and Drexler put up similar numbers in their primes, and it's going to come down to things like who's going to hit the big free throw in crunch time. I think that's perfectly reasonable. I would have no problem with taking Hakeem at the line in a close game (in his prime) up against any of the best free throw shooters in the league, because I'd know that even though he was usually around 75% during the year, he was going to deliver. If you'll remember, Kevin Johnson hit like 21 straight free throws against us in Game 7 of '95, but he missed the one that mattered. Hakeem didn't. Clyde didn't. How many did Barkley miss? By the way, I like how you said Clyde had a 'good argument' for being the 2nd best shooting guard during the Jordan era. In actuality, nobody else is even close. Any 'reasonable' person would say that.
Da Man has done an incredible job at making the case for Barkley here. No reason for me to add to that. So, let me just add a personal note. The day Barkley went down, my fellow season ticket holder and I were ill. I didn't realize until later why I felt so down. Why would a sports star's career ending injury matter that much. I say that I "live and die" bball, but it's just a game. Then I realized. He wasn't just my favorite basketball player; he, indeed, is my one hero in life. He was sad at day. I was sad. He is the only public figure I've ever seen that has transcended race, yet confronted it in public as well. I cannot put into words how much I respect those who confront racial steroetypes (which are the seeds of racism). His whole "I'm not a role model" statement was confronting racial stereotyping of whites telling blacks and blacks telling blacks that the trouble is there are not enough role models...and then furher applying the shallow argument that all black sport's star should be role models. That's a crock. Teacher's are role models. Parents are role models. Those who talk to the kids everyday and touch them are role models. People on TV may inspire, but they are not role models. Barkley floored me when he confronted the media with that. And he never back down to the stereotypical media tirade that followed. Such a young man at the time. Fascinating. The man is a true joy and inspiration. He is my hero. Clyde's insignificant after his on court accomplishments. And now he exposed himself as a fool.
When I mentioned how Clyde was a '2nd tier superstar', I meant that Clyde knows that most people didn't consider him as one of the PREMIER superstars in the league. And that perception is true even if in actuality it wasn't. Clyde was damn good. Being the 2nd best 2 guard of this generation is quite an accomplshment. But when people start reeling off names about some of the best players in the last 2 decades, Clyde is not going to be amongst the 1st tier of players that are going to be mentioned. I would consider MJ, Magic, Bird, Hak, Bark, and Malone in the 1st tier category. And because Clyde knows about this perception of him being in the "2nd tier", he feels slighted and he has a valid argument.
HP: You nailed it! Barkley is my hero as well. A final thought: Although we could debate for Days about the merits of Clyde vs CB4 remember one thing. Who will be remembered in 10, 20 or 50 years? I think CB will be remebered because he was a player and a personality. Clyde probably will be forgotten for the most part. So Clyde good luck coaching, maybe he will be remembered for that for a few more years, or if that doesn't work out he can become a regular on the Rome show talking trash about his playing days.
