Per Dakota: " I am not sure I can ever prove it to people here on this BBS, but I will tell you how I know. I was a sports intern in San Antonio back in college, and there was a rumor of a tape going around made by Patterson, where Hakeem asks for a new contract, and Patterson and Thomas say no, so Hakeem allegedly said "fine, my leg hurts then". The Rockets suspended him based upon that tape, don't you find it ironic that the league never punished the team? I never heard the tape, but the reporters from Houston who I talked to said it was absolutely rock solid that Hakeem tanked. Of course this led to the Hakeem and Charlie Thomas sit down on a plane to Japan the next preseason, and things worked out, but in my mind, I don't doubt that it happened one bit." I do not doubt Hakeem exaggerated / faked the injury - back or leg. Prior to that he had respectfully asked Steve Patterson to open his contract to be negotiated to market level. Patterson - very unprofessional told him to let his agent handle it. When Patterson did not return return phone calls for Olajuwon's agent at the time, Hakeem approached him again and was ignored and told he had a contract he would have to "live with". Olajuwon attempted to talk to Charlie Thomas and was told to talk to Patterson. After this run - a - round, Olajuwon was frustrated. Steve Patterson was a jerk and did not handle his star player well at all. THe Lakers and Magic Johnson declared that if Houston did not want Olajuwon - then the Lakers would be glad to have him on their team and win some championships. Jerry Calangelo of the Suns was interested too, but said Houston's asking price was too high. Ray Patterson was a good GM. I do not have a link, but these were rumors and bits from news stories at the time. Charlie Thomas did sit next to Hakeem on the plane to Tokyo, as arranged by Rudy. Olajuwon shoed much more class than Steve Patterson IMHO.
Dakota - Please shade my previous post with subjectivity. That's the way I recall. I think there was wrong on both sides. I did not like the way Steve Patterson handled it. These are just recollections - nothing more than that. - does not matter now anyway.
Grizz look awfully stupid not to tank the last few games now. So much about winner mentality! They would definitely have a shot against Nuggest.
Clippers went on 3-5 to finish the season, and they are 2-0 up against Nuggets. Grizz went on 8-1 to finish the season, and they are 0-2 against Mavs. Now tell me who is the winner? Clippers or Grizz? There are so many people on the board who don't understand this: you win by putting yourself in the winning situation.
No, you win by scoring more points than the other team. Period. Now if your point is that the Clippers may have put themselves in a series against an easier opponent by losing near the end of the season, then you may be right. However, if they can't beat ANY team that they may match up with, then they won't advance to the finals anyway. They will just hang around to get eliminated later than Memphis. If you believe your team can make it to the finals, then you don't care who is in your way, and you play to win. I wasn't able to register on the forums until recently, but for the record I don't support tanking, regardless of what people speculate (and thats what it is folks) it has won us in the past. When people were talking a few weeks ago about how they would much rather have a #6 pick over a #9 pick, that just doesn't make sense, unless you are planning to trade your pick. For the record, what's the difference between #6 and #9 talent wise? Let's consult the previous 10 years drafts for the answer: 2005 #6: Martel Webster 2005 #9: Ike Diogu 2004 #6: Josh Childress 2004 #9: Andre Iguodola 2003 #6: Chris Kaman 2003 #9: Mike Sweetney 2002 #6: Dajuan Wagner 2002 #9: Amare Stoudamire 2001 #6: Shane Battier 2001 #9: Rodney White 2000 #6: DerMarr Johnson 2000 #9: Joel Przybilla 1999 #6: Wally Szczerbiak 1999 #9: Shawn Marion 1998 #6: Robert Traylor 1998 #9: Dirk Nowitzki 1997 #6: Ron Mercer 1997 #9: Tracy McGrady So I guess if you want to increase your odds by a ping-pong ball or three, thats fine, but I'll take an organization who views competing to win all the time, every time as a matter of personal integrity and challenge. Oh yeah, and I'll settle for the later picks that yielded the likes of Tracy McGrady, Dirk Nowitzki, Amare Stoudamire, Shawn Marion, and Andre Igoudala over the #6 picks that yielded Ron Mercer, Robert Traylor, Martel Webster, etc. I'll stop there before I embarass anyone on my very first post.
Obviously the 8th pick doesn't guarantee a "luckier" pick than the 6th. Conversely, the 6th pick, as history proves, is not any better than the 8th. The only exception to this is if you intend to move that pick, and you get the extra 2 players to choose from. Personally, that small consideration is not worth sacrificing the pride of your players and coach. Then again, I'm a person that thinks personal integrity and pride are virtues that aren't for sale. I guess that is an outdated way of thinking-- superceded by the "win at all costs" mentality. I heard the evil sensei from Karate Kid is available to coach, maybe we should give him a call. Those little cobra patches would look cool on our uniforms too.
I'm pretty sure the Rockets cared when the Sonics got knocked out in the first round in 1994. Sometimes a team just has your number. Anyways, we are clearly so far from even thinking of the finals right now. Getting out of the first round would be a huge stepping stone for this team, as it would be for the Clippers. I don't blame them for tanking at the end of the season, and wish we would have done the same thing last year. We would have been in the spurs half of the bracket, but getting out of the first round could have had a very positive effect on the team. It's easy to be a badass contender every year and say, 'yeah, we don't care who we play,' but we are not even close to being there yet. For now, i'll take any positive step forward I can get. And winning meaningless games at the end of the year by playing veterans with broken ribs does not help accomplish that.
Understood. However, put yourself in the position of a player, lacing up his sneaks to go in front of thousands of people... or to sit on the bench while you watch your younger teammates get sacrificed. Down to the last man on the bench, these are guys that have likely been obsessed with winning from the time they were kids, and have worked hard to get where they are. I doubt that being told to intentionally lose would sit well with many of them, when they have nothing much left to play for but pride. I, for one, could never ask one of those guys to go out there and lose. Nor could I ask my coach to sit guys that were starters and that were capable of playing, under the guise of playing younger guys to "see what they can do", when anybody with common sense knows that you are tanking. That's just my opinion, and I know, it's not the popular one.
Good post. I don't agree with everything but good post. You seem like you could be a good addition to the board so don't fade away too quickly. I don't think playing young players is necessarily a guise for tanking. When you do it the way Minny and Boston did, well then, yes. And even though I make jokes, the young players should be trying to win(unlike Madsen ) I can understand playing Yao. He is still learning how to play up to his potential. I can understand playing Alston, because we needed to see whether or not he can be counted on as a starter and we had no one worth playing behind him to even try out. But Howard and Wesley? Give me a break. We know what they can do and that they benefit not at all by playing in those games. They should not have been getting 30+ minutes a game. We would have been better served by seeing more of Chuck, Swift, Bogans, Head, and maybe even Lampe and Frahm. I guess you could argue that the fans want to see the "W", but I think the majority would have preferred to see the youngsters during actual game time, and not just to lose games. And I know you posted that draft history, but it doesn't really prove your point imo. Every draft is different and this one is different than most. But I do think we'll have to wait until the draft workouts to see just how deep this class really is. It's just frustrating because right now, it looks like we are sitting on the outside looking in(and just by a pick or 2 mind you) for the pfs and wing players that could make a big difference on this team. But a lot can change between now and the workouts.
The tanking subject has been discussed ad nauseam. It's getting repetitive. I suggest posters read the relevant subject first before rehashing old points. As for #6 vs. #9, let me offer an example. Dream was taken at the No.1 pick while Jordan at No.3. Jordan won 4 more rings than Dream. I'm sure that means the No.3 pick can be treated as roughly the equivalent of the No.1 pick. Following such logic, we should have given up the No.1 pick for Yao and get the No.3 pick plus a bag of cheetos. I bet we could've already won a few rings now.
Thanks man, glad to be here. Not only do I agree with you about sitting Wesley and Howard, but I think it should have been done well before we were eliminated from playoff contention. I would have liked to have seen what Stromile was capable of as a starter, as well as more of Chuck Hayes. Overall, the season was a big disappointment when considering pre-season expectations and the fact that we had been simmering all summer after that blowout loss to the Mavericks. It was supposed to be a year of vindication, but it just turned out so wrong. However, the struggles will make everything so much sweeter when the day comes that TMac and Yao bring us another championship!
It's not about taking specific players in a given draft. The point is the draft is different from year to year. You record of comparisons between #6 and #9 in the past is not a reflection of what will happen this year. The draftees and GMs are different.
Let me get this straight. You were all for sitting Jho & Wes before we were eliminated from the playoffs even though JVG thought starting those guys were our best chance to win, but you're opposed to playing others like Lampe because that would obviusly be tanking? Which you're against. Hmmm...
