look on the bright side, at least the Rocks didn't overpay Webber

Oh, I know. I understand that it is possible to overcome "choker" status. Personally, I do think that we would have been better off getting Webber, now. But that is neither here nor there. I was just pointing out to some that the real argument here was not whether Webber was better than Taylor, but how much success people thought Webber would bring for the Rockets in the postseason.

Also, people said for years that Dream couldn't succeed against the Sonics because their defense really flustered him. But in Dream's defense, at least he still attempted to take the ball inside, he just wasn't able to do much with it. What BGM and others are saying about Webber is that, when faced with a tough defense, he doesn't really even attempt to take it inside.

 

Alright, this is my final post on this subject until the next series Webber's involved in, my point is Webber's play against Dallas isn't representative of what he really does in the playoffs, so I'll just wait for him to play LA or San Antonio, and then we'll see if he still plays weak...

Ah, you got me on the weak frontcourt talk, I was ignoring C and SF and just focusing on PF, since that is what Webber is...

I have faith that EG will have his breakout year next season because that is usually how the elite PF's seem to develop. Their rookie year is okay, but then they blow up in their 2nd season, and I'm hoping/counting on EG to do that. I think our PF's will be pretty solid next year with EG/Mo/KT, but of course PF isn't the only position in the frontcourt...so we'll have a solid PF rotation, but I can't argue about the mediocrity of the other 2 positions...

I agree with all of the points except for the last 2. I partially agree with d, except I believe Webber would have sucked in the playoffs for the Rockets, which means in the end, the Rockets would still have no rings. I just believe Webber is a guy that will never win anything as the #1 option, with the Rockets, he would be exactly that, which is why I don't want him.

Also on E, it's more fun to predict he'll flame out and then be proven right instead of just waiting on him to flame out...

They won't win it, so need to discuss it...

What happens if the Jazz finally win a ring next year?

Who cares?

It ain't happenin'...

I will say if Webber actually bodies up on the inside and tries to score points inside instead of just settling for the jumpshot, I will admit that he has finally reached his potential, and he is one of the best PF's in the game. I'll also stop talking about him being soft.

 

initially, i would've termed webber soft, too, but as i've watched this series (my first extended chance to really watch the guy), two things have become abundantly clear to me: 1) i'm beginning to think maybe, just maybe, webber's simply not a prototypical 4, and you know what? i'm not so sure that's necessarily a bad thing; 2) he and nowitski have similiar games -- do people burn three pages of a bbs wondering if he's too soft to win a championship? and webber's a much better all-around player. granted, there's a big age (ie experience) difference between the two, but i think mav fans should consider themselves lucky if dirk becomes as well-rounded when he's 28, 29 as webber is currently.

webber handles the ball decently for a big man and he's a very good passer (something not many have brought up in this thread); he's also not a terrible shot from outside and he's by no means a defensive liability. whether he's a choker, or not... we'll get a pretty good idea tonight (monday) and as the WC finals unfold, but i've been pleasantly surprised by him thus far.

i wish the rockets had signed him...

 

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DaDakota, we finally agree on something!!!

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The point is, when you have no post game, it makes it that much harder to have a good passing game... Why? Because the other team doesn't have to respect the post. They just guard the perimeter all day long and let guys take outside shots.

I guarantee you that without Weber the Kings would not have won this series. They would have probably made it this far or maybe pushed to a game 5 in the opening round. But, geez, BGM, what freakin' series are you watching. Weber was all over the place, passing, rebounding, hitting outside shots, dunking on alley-oops, driving and dishing. That is what you call a complete player. Are you blind? Mo Taylor has never averaged more than 8 boards a game in his <b>CAREER</b>. Weber is averaging over 11 boards a game in <b>THE PLAYOFFS</b>.

Of course you can continue to make your convoluted arguments. But, it's pretty obvious who is the better player, hands down.

 

It amazes me how highly Taylor is thought of on this board. I guess Webber shot isn't better than Taylor's? If he shot is so good, why did he avg 13 pts on a Rockets team last yr that had nothing but a back up to back him up? Regardless of pay, who would rather have Taylor over Webber? BGM, I guess you have never seen Webber stick that ft line jumper. This is crazy.

 

a.) I would have rather we have Webber, but he didn't really want to come, so who cares where he is, we should concentrate on what we have and could potentially have, like the "we could have had Hakeem and Michael Jordan on the same team..."
b.) Maybe Taylor could improve in his problem areas, but if the stories about his weight going past Shaqness and into JR Richard territory are true, we are the fools for thinking he was serious about basketball.

 

I guess after the Rockets said they were going to resign their own fa's, then trade 2 of them i guess it should of told us something. Its a buch of coulda,woulda, shoulda, but it would have been nice to see a offer for him. Its not every yr that you have a chance to get a all star big man.

 

Apparently the arguments are so convoluted that you don't know what they are, because you are not even addressing the points. Once again, NO ONE IS ARGUING THAT WEBBER IS A BETTER POWER FORWARD THAN MO TAYLOR. For Christ's sake, at least realize that. Everyone is making these posts expressing their surprise that this is even an argument. It's not an argument! No one is saying Webber is not better.

But if you paid attention to tonight's game, it really went a long way to proving BGM's points. About 75% of Webber's shots tonight were from the outside. If he isn't getting an alley oop, or a pass from a teamate where he is set up perfectly by a great play THEY set up, he is shooting 20 foot jumpers. Tonight, he shot well and hit most of those. Against a team like the Lakers, he won't because they have better, in your face defense. Webber looked scared to take the ball inside against the freaking Mavs, of all teams, one that has no inside presence. I have seen some of Webber's post moves, and they are good. I just don't understand why he doesn't play more of a low post game, unless he is in fact scared of taking it inside, which is exactly what BGM was arguing.

The comparison to Dirk Nowitszki earlier in this thread is a good one. Dirk struggled early in this series because he wasn't shooting well, and he is was very hesitant to take the ball inside strong. That hurt his team. Against the Lakers, I predict the same thing will happen to Webber. I still wish the Rockets had signed Webber, because I think he can be broken of his "wussing out" mentality, but I can see where people would not want him on the team, out of fear that it would make us a Utah Jazz like organization that makes the playoffs every season but never goes all the way because "The Man" on the team gets scared in crunch time of big games.

 

The guy is a team player...he is among the top 3 PF's in the game today hands down. Call him weak, soft, puss whatever, the guy would have made a difference in Houston or anywhere else he would have gone and there is absolutely no doubt about that. Mo is not better for this franchise, nor will he ever be but for some Godforsaken reason, you seem to think so. Regardless, we are stuck with Mo so lets just call a truce on this because I dont feel like arguing until the draft...deal?

 

I hate when people make STUPID comments. For those who said that Chris Webb was overreated need their heads checked! You have to be kidding me?! That's the most messed up thing I've heard since I've been on this site. C Webb got GAME! All around game, from the post to the arc....Get Real! I guess those of you who made those comments are still hurt on the fact that he dissed Houston and said he wouldn't come hear because that would be going backwards for him. He was right! So stop hating this man and actually watch the games and the numbers he is putting up. The number 1 or 2 power forward in the league.

 

I hate when people respond with stupid posts.

 

looks scared...? come on. you can't criticize a player because he doesn't live up to your ideal image of a PF. i think it's high time to accept that webber's simply not a prototypical 4, but that he's quite good at what he does do, and has been a major cog in the kings' success.

several times monday night (and thruout the series), because of switches and rotations, he had smaller players guarding him, and yet he still turned to face the basket and launched shots from about 15 feet. that's his game. criticizing him for not going inside is like criticizing shaq because he's not a better ballhandler.

if you want to argue the rockets didn't (or don't) need that type of PF, fine, that's one thing. but this notion he's a puss, or scared, or that he's not a bruiser and, therefore, he's not as good as he could be (a thought far too many otherwise smart people are bringin up much too often), is simply ridiculous.

 

Sorry I didn't join you earlier Band Geek...

First, a couple of things I don't understand:

1) I don't understand why people seem to be assuming that Webber wanted to play for the Rockets.

2) I don't understand why people assume that the Rockets did not try to get Webber. Do you believe everything that is said in the papers? Do you know what went on behind the scenes?

3) As has been pointed out, I don't understand why this became a Webber vs. Taylor debate. Webber makes more than twice what Taylor does -- therefore I would expect more than double the production.

4) I don't understand why people keep bringing up Webber scoring 30 points in two playoff games this year in which both teams scored about 120 points each, when he consistently fails to raise his level of play in the playoffs throughout his career (50% FG career, 44.5% playoff).

5) I don't understand why people assume that we would have been a playoff team this year with Webber. I agree with Band Geek and others who've said that if merely making the playoffs is your goal in the future, then maybe Webber is a good fit.

A few things that haven't been pointed out about Webber:

The Kings record without him this year: 19-9

Average number of games per year Webber's missed in 9 years: 20

I would love for the Kings to beat LA, but it ain't gonna happen, and if it does, it certainly won't be due to Christina Webber.

 

1) I don't understand why people seem to be assuming that Webber wanted to play for the Rockets.

He said he did, and that Houston didn't seem interested.

2) I don't understand why people assume that the Rockets did not try to get Webber. Do you believe everything that is said in the papers? Do you know what went on behind the scenes?

Given #1, and given no statements to the contrary, why shouldn't we assume that?

3) As has been pointed out, I don't understand why this became a Webber vs. Taylor debate. Webber makes more than twice what Taylor does -- therefore I would expect more than double the production.

Well, that's a bit of a silly standard. Hakeem was making $15MM last year. Francis was making $3MM. Should expectations of Francis be 1/5th of whatever Hakeem did? You can't compare contracts, and certainly not on a "straight-line".

4) I don't understand why people keep bringing up Webber scoring 30 points in two playoff games this year in which both teams scored about 120 points each, when he consistently fails to raise his level of play in the playoffs throughout his career (50% FG career, 44.5% playoff).

I don't understand the argument that we don't want Webber due to playoff failures, when every player in the league failed until they won a championship, and when we're counting on an array of players who've never even played a single playoff game.

5) I don't understand why people assume that we would have been a playoff team this year with Webber. I agree with Band Geek and others who've said that if merely making the playoffs is your goal in the future, then maybe Webber is a good fit.

Yeah, instead, we're more likely to dominate in the playoffs with Glen Rice, Moochie Norris and Maurice Taylor (the players we picked instead of Webber).

 

well said Major.....


Freak...perhaps you should read the earlier posts and not just jump into a discussion in which you dont know whats being discussed,,,certain people on here (BGM in particular I suppose) feel that the Rockets are better off with Mo than Webber. Do you truly agree with that statement?

 

I understand BGM's point and agree with him, but I believe CWebb may just not be a prototypical 4, as Ric said.

Would I have wanted him here last summer, YES?

Am I crying because he did the smart thing? NO

Also, I think people are handing the lakers a 3rd championship way too quick.

A) They get 4 , count em, 4 games at Arco Arena.

B) The Kings are a horrible matchup for them as Bibby torches Fisher, Peja vs Fox and CWebb vs Walker/Horry. Plus Christie can hold his own vs Kobe and Divac is worse than Shaq of course but he isn't shabby himself. Not to mention the Kings have a better bench.

I think it was a good move for the Kings to rest Peja vs Dallas, because they know they need him most vs LA.

Overall, while LA is the favorite, I will not anoint them champions yet, because I really do think the Kings can beat them, and yes whoever wins the West wins the whole enchilada.

 

When did he ever say that he wanted to play for the Rockets? I must have missed that. I do remember an upset Christina crying about how nobody pursued him on the market when he thought he was the sheeat...how he "may have been interested in Houston" but "they never called me" wah wah wah. Did you take that as him wanting to turn down 30 million bucks to come play for a lesser team? And still have to play against Shaq, whom he is afraid of? Seems to me like merely a case of his wittle ego being bruised. I guess I just prefer not to assume I knew what's going on behind the scenes from Webber's little crybaby act to the media.

I don't think it's a silly standard when they both signed 6-7 year deals in the exact same off-season based on what their respective teams thought they were worth.

I'd rather take my chances on guys who haven't been there, than someone who's been there MANY times and failed EVERY time. Especially when I've got to pay that guy 100 million bucks and he's already been in the league 9 years. I prefer not to pin my future on that guy.

I actually agree with this part.

 

just as the mavs and their lame-ass fans read way too much into sweeping MIN, SAC should be careful about dismantling an overrated maverick team.

the mavs, despite their record and SI cover, are not in the lakers' class. not even close. adleman won't be able to coach circles around jackson like he did nelson. derek fisher won't play out of control and sink his team like nash did; kobe bryant's points will not be near as quiet as finley's were; shaq will not shoot 30%, or whatever dirk shot in the series; the lakers' bench will not disappear and fail to contribute as the mavs' did...

the kings have the talent, but they have to all step it up again, and that's going to be tough to do.

 

I definitely do not disagree with you Ric about reading too much into this series.

Basically, I believe the X factor is Peja-if he's healthy, LA is in trouble, if not, It'll be entertaining but winning=difficult, not impossible.

I just think LA looks vunerable this year, Kings have homecourt and a team that has key advantages over the Lakers weak positions.

LA has not looked near as good thwarting SA this year than last. In fact, the Spurs honestly should lead this series the way LA has played.

 

You're right NJ, this discussion is WAY over my head, what was I thinking? If you'll notice, I didn't respond to any of the posts where ya'll were discussing splitting the atom, as I don't know much about that stuff.

Do I think the Rockets were better off signing a healthy Mo Taylor over Chris Webber? Perhaps not for the first year or two, but for the longterm, yes. Now that Mo has missed an entire year due to injury, something that NO ONE could have predicted -- I'll have to see how he recovers before I'll be able to judge it. But neither Webber nor Mo will or would have led us to a championship, so the question is meaningless. I mean, do the Blazers really care that they were better than the Sonics this year? I doubt it. So we may have been better the first couple of years with Webber than we may end up being -- that's not necessarily saying much.