Local (Houston) Talk Radio Host Calls for Blowing Up of Mosque

No one is free of prejudice completely, even myself, but the key is to put your prejudice in perspective with the idea of living in a plural society. Again you yourself have said this yet you continue to be locked into a pattern of bias.

As for poster like Batman Jones I agree they let their anger and self righteousness get to them every now and then. I've called him on it before but Batman Jones isn't really issue here.

Really what is your seeming obsession with my seeming popularity? You've brought this up multiple times and frankly it makes you sound like a teenage girl whining about the popular kids.

You have argued vehemently for the defense of rights so why shouldn't we fight for the rights of even those who stand for things that we do not agree with? Your vision of rights though seems limited to what message you agree with. You will defend to the utmost the right to mock Mohammed but will criticize people exercising the right to free practice of religion.

Rights don't work that way. If they did they wouldn't be rights and you have to decide then what do you stand for. Freedom on the whole or freedom only when it suits you?

And as I said before this is paranoid and what breeds mistrust. Again you have asked do unto others as you would like them to do unto you but how can you ask for trust and respect when you aren't willing to extend it?

And my response to CrazyDave is that his explanation is essentially a defense of bias, not his but that of perception. Also you will note he says he is for it.

You have said several times in this thread that this is a Muslim symbol substituting for an American symbol. America isn't based on a religion.

 

Hmmm maybe I didn't get my point across well, or it's just gray area, or perhaps it actually is just that I can understand how people would be what you see as biased in this situation. Not really how I intended it... nor does this have anything to do with the McVeigh part of what I said, but that's all fine. Reflection is good.

Essentially it was a defense of respect, and not feeling that anyone who disagrees with the notion is an idiot. And yes, I am for it.

 

Not to mention an anti-Muslim terrorist planted a bomb, and the bomb actually went off, at a Florida mosque.

Of course, ATW will ignore all this and still call it self-victimization. If Muslims complain, they are making up the facts and are being whiny b****es. But he need not much evidence to go on to label people Islamist zealots and accuse them of being terrorists or terrorist sympathizers at the slightest hint that they have not been completely castrated and forced to apologize every single hour on the hour for every terrorist or criminal attack that has ever taken place.

The guy seriously cracks me up. It is made all the more funny that a non-American (from Germany, no less) is trying to dictate what American Muslims should or should not do from across the Atlantic. This should give you some insight into how the Islamophobic European mind works, which is on full display in countries like France and Germany. It is absolutely a totalitarian mindset and is far more realistic and present in the European political landscape than an Al-Qaeda-led caliphate will ever be in the Muslim world.

 

Check your facts - I responded to the thread that was started about it and complained that it was not in the news - no word of self-victimization there.

Now that is self-victimization.

1) I am hardly representative of the average German or European.
2) Neither I nor the average German or European has a totalitarian mindset.
3) I am not trying to dictate anything, I am participating in a discussion. Now I can see how someone with a totalitarian mindset, e.g. an Islamist, would have a problem with that, but...

 

I apologize if you felt I was calling you an idiot and you did make cogent and good argument which in my haste I didn't respond to you. My point was that your argument in regard to why the building of the mosque is sensitive issue is one that is based on a perception of bias by other people that this is seen as a triumphalist move on the part of Muslims. My point is that is a perception of bias and is a perception.

YOu bring up good points in regard to that we don't know how much Tim McVeigh was motivated by religion but then at the same time since he was clearly motivated by anti-government feelings if the Libertarian party wanted to set up an office near the Murrah Federal buildings as a party dedicated to opposing big government should we consider that a triumphalist statement on their part and should we then demand that they make a museum documenting the horrors of OKC and other actions taken by radical anti-government groups and individuals.

 

Nope, I didn't thin/mean that. You're good. I was referring to those that have indicated they feel that if you don't just agree that it should be built then you are "absolutely ridiculous" etc. I don't see it that way, even though I feel building it would be a positively defining gesture. I don't see it as bias the way you and some others do, necessarily, that is all. I only responded because the point and context about McV seemed wrong and wanted to clarify. No foul by me.

A bit loose, but let's see.

Since i don't see the mosque that way, I think you know my answer to be "no" already, with a tentative nod and realism that knows some people on both sides WILL see it that way, whether it is in my opinion rational or not.

If we are who we have been trying to portray since our constitution was drafted and before, then we can't "demand" such a thing. This is less rational than the question of building the mosque in the first place, in my opinion. If they wish to denounce the acts there in some commemorative form, that is their prerogative, not a demand or condition. Can't say it would be a bad idea, really, but to make a demand or condition of it is against who we are, or say we are.

 

I am sorry, but when I see stories like this, I have less and less doubt that opposition to this mosque is largely motivated by bigotry and outright hatred for Arabs or Muslims or whomever these people consider to be the enemy

Excerpts below:

http://www.northjersey.com/news/opinions/kelly/95748769_On_this_ground__zero_tolerance.html?page=all

Not unexpected, I guess.

 

Sad that such bigotry exists, and equally sad that other folks will look the other way at such bigotry.

 

but you are assuming that the victims of 9/11 did not include Muslims... 9/11 was an American tragedy... it wasn't a tragedy to the white race... to the Christian religion... it was a tragedy to every part of this society. From the victims of 9/11 are people from every race and religion. Many Muslims worked in those towers as well. There was even a Muslim place of worship on one of the levels of the towers. New York City is home to upwards of 2 million Muslims. To think that the victims are a separate entity than the one's building the mosque is a thought we need to mend with knowledge.

 

Stupid people piss me off.

 

Thanks for posting that ima. Good read.

 

More opposition from locals for OTHER worship centers being built around NYC

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/06/11/nyregion/11mosque.html

Like was already mentioned, many other mosques proposed in the past have faced some local opposition, and this existed even before 9/11. The one near ground zero is hardly the exception, it is actually the rule.

Should Muslims succumb to pressures in all of these cases and just hide in their own homes in fear of offending the people with pitchforks?

 

I think it's sad...but Muslims have to realize one thing about this. When the leaders of a religion say that where Islam exist other religions are not welcome...when extremist hi-jack a religion and moderate Muslims are slow to denounce it...this is the kind of result.

Is Islam a violent religion? No as far as I am concerned. But...what do moderates do to fight the PERCEPTION of what Islam is? When it's viewed the many Muslims sympathize with extremist and their crusade against Israel / the U.S. - there are going to be these kinds of reaction.

Moderate Muslims can't have it both ways. They can't turn a blind eye to the extremist segments and then hope that magically they won't be discriminated against. It doesn't make it right, but you know what, that's the way humanity works.

It really is up to Moderate Muslims to shape how Islam will be viewed, and until they start really full heartedly condeming terrorism and all violence targeted against civilians, they will always be viewed poorly whether that's fair or not.

 

You are sort of flip-flopping again, but this time I agree with you. And that is why I cannot understand that several of the Muslim posters here would rather be hush-hush about Islamic extremism than use the good opportunity of denouncing it with e.g. an exhibition at that planned mosque near Ground Zero.

 

I agree with your thoughts, but disagree that it is up to them.

They are the ones who will have to shape how Islam is viewed, but at the moment, it is not possible for them to do because the power imbalance is too large in the other side's favor.

The House of Saud can convert entire countries into their religion with their power. Think about Malaysia, Indonesia, Yemen, Mauritania, etc. These are hundreds of millions of people at a time.

A moderate sits between the cash of Europe/America and Saudi Arabia. They have to fix the perception on one side by defeating the other side.

For anyone to think it's something moderates have not been trying hard enough is laughable. Moderates are hostages in this information war, but they are doing their best to do what you're saying. So while it is ultimately their responsibility, their hands are somewhat tied for the time being.

 

BB99 - so today, I made good on my promise, I actually went and visited a mosque for the first time, the blue mosque in Istanbul (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sultan_Ahmed_Mosque), beautiful building, by the way.



Have to admit that my curiosity was more of a touristy nature, but remembering your suggestion here, I actually made my way to the "Islam information center" inside the mosque. There was nobody there at the time, but I did pick up some leaflets. Anyway, it was interesting.

One question I have: I noticed that only men seemed to be allowed into the inner part of the mosque, while women had to pray in the "cheap seats" near the entrance, actually even behind the part of the mosque that was open to tourists. Is it like that in all mosques?

 

No, it is not.

 

Not sure where I flipped or flopped, I've been consistent the whole time. I think Muslims should be able to build a mosque anywhere they want in America so long as it doesn't violate separation of church and state.

I don't think the Muslim posters are trying to be hush-hush either, I think you are putting them on the defensive and forcing them to defend and justify that their beliefs and way of life isn't immoral. And frankly that's kinda really cruel of you to do.

I think that a mosque near ground zero would be a great statement that A) Muslims in America care about what happened and they too were hurt by 9/11 and B) America is the land of the free and truly welcomes all and will never judge the whole by the acts of the few.

It is for these reasons that most people who actually live near ground zero - the actual community there - welcomes the mosque with open arms and the people who protest against it are people who for the most part don't even live in NYC.

 

Moderate Muslims supposedly make up the vast majority of Muslims and number in the 100's of millions. They have wealth, education, and global reach. I'm sorry, but I can not agree with you. Many Moderates have remained quiet or in fact tried to explain away or be apologists for terrorists.

Look, you're right, they don't have to define how Islam is perceived. They can let the extremists do it for them and that's all good. But if they continue on the trek they have been, the result will be more people like Aroundtheworld and Basso. The extremists only give ammunition for the extremists on the other side.

Maybe Moderate Muslims have been working hard on changing the perception - well, guess what - it's not enough and they better do more if they really care about how they are perceived.