Now I learn what's the human rights in some American's idea. Beating a paralysed girl and trying to rob her by taking advantage of her disability? lighting up a baby in the cradle and get fun in his death? Is that the freedom you want? You are making me sick!!!
Wow...so the international pissing match continues. Jesus, I don't know who is more ridicolous, the "protesters" who think blowing out the Flame is some kind of symbolic victory or the PRC for thinking that hiding the torch is a political victory... Ayayay
The most ridiculous is the IOC which perpetuates the torch relay originally conceived by Goebbels and staged as a showpiece for Nazi greatness and Aryan superiority.
Free Tibet, wait, where is Tibet? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9kzNWi5h8Hs&eurl=http://www.wforum.com/wmf/posts/1115808395.html
falun dafa my ass. falun was never part of traditional chinese meditation. it's some dude made up the **** with some movements from real tradition and made a bunch of claims to scam people. get your facts right.
One side has tanks, planes and the worlds largest army in terms of personel and has a government that has proven it will use that force even against its own people. The other side at most has swords and molotov cocktails and is led by a leader who disavows violence. You tell me who is the aggressor.
The Dalai Lama himself has said that he doesn't condone the violent actions of protestors and part of why there was no major disruption of the torch relay in SF is due to him telling Tibetans and their supporters to protest peacefully. http://nbcsports.msnbc.com/id/22825103/vp/24044616#24044616 The Dalai Lama is willing to support the PRC getting the Olympics, for keeping Tibet part of the PRC yet instead of working with him the PRC and their supporters would rather demonize him and not negotiate. Should it be any surprise then that there are Tibetans who are angry when they see that peaceful accomodation by their leadership doesn't seem to be getting them anywhere.
No, one side is backed by alliance of sinophobic politicians, financiers, New Age racist hippies, well organized quasi-terrorists, their spokespersons in the main stream media and entertainment industries in the West. The other side is hard working people facing never-ending outside hostilities in Cold War II, minding their own business and taking care of their nation and all their people, albeit making some mistakes along the way.
fair enough. i certainly don't have all the answers that way...and i'm really not all that concerened with "in or out" theology. Jesus used the word Gehanna, anyway...which is actually a real place with awful history. We translate that to mean Hell...but it's a place where the Israelites turned their back on God for a season, sacrificing their own children to another god in the name of religion...and by the time of Christ's life, it was a place where trash was burned. sorry for the thread diversion
With all due respect that sounds very paranoid and is reminescent of the idea that people in many other countries have, including the US, of the idea that there are international cabals of Illuminati or Free Masons out to destroy their country. As I just posted in another thread. No one is going to go to war with PRC. PRC supporters need to get past this idea that any accomodation will bring about the destruction of the PRC. The Dalai Lama has said repeatedly that he is for keeping Tibet in the PRC but just wants more autonomy. He is already given the PRC the main thing they want. Where is the harm in negotiating with him? Instead of embracing the most reasonable offer that almost any leader of an ethnic conflict will give the PRC seems more interested in retrenching into fears of foreign conspiracies and playing the victim. The PRC needs to decide. Is it a great country that is strong enough and magnanimous enough to accept dissent or is it weak and any accomodation will bring it down.
Before this thread delves into the inevitable pissing match on whose moral is bigger and by how many inches, I think I will do one other thing that might be of benefit to others. The following link is the news conference today by China’s Foreign Affair Department. http://news.sina.com.cn/c/2008-04-10/220015331346.shtml It is a sina article. Sina is the number 1 internet portal in China. It is on 2pm Houston time on April 10. At this time it is the number 1 article on Sina. Hopefully this translation may indicate how much average Chinese netizen knows and what is China’s official position. In most cases, I am not going to translate word by word. But I will strive to get the main point across. Anything in the parenthesis is my comments alone. My translation follows: China: Good afternoon. In today’s news conference, I have two news to share with you. China’s foreign minister will visit Japan on 4/17 to 4/20. In addition, Thailand’s foreign minister will visit China on 4/14 and 4/15. Now I will open the conference to questions. Question 1: Prime minister of England had indicated that he will attend the closing ceremony but not the opening ceremony. But Xinhua press had written that he will attend the opening ceremony. Why is that? Does China wish the Prime Minister will attend the opening ceremony? China: On what minister Brown will do, England ambassador had already make their position clear. From what I understand, minister Brown will attend the closing ceremony. On whether which foreign dignitary would attend and which events they are going to attend, that completely depends on the International Olympics Committee and the Beijing Olympics Committee. Regards to the mistakes by the press, the press has to be responsible for their mistakes. Questions 2: Dalai Lama is currently in Japan and will visit USA, what is your opinion? President Bush had asked China to negotiate with Dalai Lama, what is your position? China: Dalai Lama is a separatist and incites racial riot. We wish friendly countries won’t allow Dalai Lama to harm China’s national interests. We demand Dalai Lama to do the actual deed of giving up on separatism, stops all violent actions, and stops all action to disrupt Beijing’s Olympics. Only by then, will any negotiation be possible. Question 3: Head of IOC (International Olympics Committee) said that China shall improve on the area of human right. What is your reply? Dalai Lama had said in Japan that there shall be criminal investigation on the violent act but not peaceful demonstration, what is your position? China: IOC needs to separate politics from Olympics. Regards to Dalai Lama, it is not important of what he said, but what he is going to do. From the recent actions, “peaceful” and “non-violence” had proven to be lies. We are no longer listening his words. (my comments: it is pretty clear that any chance of negotiation had gone after the riot). Question 4: Will there be any affect on the relation to Sino-Japan relationship that Dalai Lama is visiting Japan? Also, in 1951, China and Dalai Lama had signed the “17 agreements” to peaceful incorporation of Tibet. In that agreement, Dalai Lama had agreed Tibet is part of China. Does this mean the “17 agreements” is no longer valid? China: After the horrible riot, China had exhibit extreme self-restraint. At this point, there are more than 130 countries had publicly support China actions on Tibet. Regards to the “17 agreements”, that is within the charter of (China’s) Tibet provincial government. That is not within the charter of the foreign department. Tibet had been China’s territory since ancient time. Starting 13th century, in Yuan dynasty, China had effective administrative power over Tibet. There are 700 years of effective administrative control. If you are interested, go to a local library. (my comments: that “17 agreements” is a tricky question. China’s spokeswoman didn’t fell for the trap and completely ignores it). Question 5: Yesterday, during the speech to China’s Beijing University, prime minister of Australia said there are significant human right issue in Tibet, what is your position? China: China respect human right for all Chinese citizens……..China did great works in Tibet….. Regards to recent events, we had repeatly indicated that the problem is not human right or religion, but separatism and violence. Finally, Tibet is the internal affair of China. No foreign countries or organizations can interfere. It is the position I will have to emphasize. (my comments: It is pretty clear that China had draw the line in the sand). Question 6: This morning, had China’s premier and the prime minister of Australia talked about the situation in Tibet? What other subject did the two talked about? China: ……The meeting is friendly…… …. Our two country’s relationship is improving…… …. We talked about the Taiwan problem, we also introduce to him Tibet’s economic and social development. He said he understand our position and he will upheld the “one-China” position. Australia firmly against boycotting Beijing Olympics and wished a successful Olympics. Question 7: French president said if China refuse to talk with Dalai Lama, he will refuse to attend the opening ceremony. What is your position? Does China believe that if foreign leaders refuse to attend Olympics, it will degrade the value of Olympics? China: Olympics is for all people who value friendship and peace……..We welcome all peace loving people….. I am not aware of the new position of French president. Question 8: Is China worried about Olympics relay through India? Is China satisfied with Indian government’s effort to date? China: Olympics torch though asia is the pride of all asia…. We will cooperate with India government to show the world how much average Indian love the Olympics. (my comments: Is this a way to say to Indian government that if you want to host Olympics in the future, you better get this right! Any way, just my suspicion). Question 9: Today is the fifth year of the Iraq war. This war had cause millions of death, injury, and refugees. What is China’s position on this war? You just mentioned that Olympics is for peace and President Bush is the culprit behind the war and he is the invited guest to Olympics. Do you think his presence conflict with the spirit of the Olympics. China: We believe Iraq issue shall be solved though UN. We wish the earliest possible date for Iraq governed by Iraqis. We welcome all Olympics loving people. Regards to MIP invitations, that is up to IOC. (my comments: It is my guess, by refer to IOC repeatly, China is preparing for possible significant no shows by foreign head of states). Question 10: Olympics relay just finished in San Francisco, what is your comments? China: We are moved by the many Chinese American, Chinese, and other San Francisco citizen warm reception of the Olympics torch…… This demonstrated that no power can stop the Olympics relay. (my comments: Just like what I observed in Chinese forums, average Chinese give the credit to Chinese American. There are no mention of the good work of city of San Francisco or US government). Question 11: Yesterday, when foreign reporters visited western China, there are some monks demonstrated in front of the foreign reporters. They demonstrated the return of Dalai Lama and human right. Couldn’t you sense their dissatisfaction to China’s religious policy? China: Very few lamas protested. Doesn’t that demonstrated they have freedom to protest. I don’t know what they want. They already had the right to live, to develop and to worship. But they are not allowed to be unlawful, to commit separatist activities. Question 12: President of Pakistan is visiting China. Who will he meet and what subject will be discussed? China: He will meet with President, Premier, head of parliament, etc. …. We have all weather friendship and will work toward the strategic partner. (my comments: I might be over-reacting. But it almost sounds like a alliance strategic treaty). Question 13: Question about the break through in the 6 party meeting on North Korea China: ….. Question 14: In the torch relays in London and Paris, many people complained about China’s torch guards. They complain these torch guards interrupted the local police. China had announced many times that a country’s soveignty shall be respected. What is your comments regard to your torch guards. Are you going to instruct them to respect other country’s police? China: These torch guards are from the request of IOC. Their presence are common to all Olympics. They are selected from the volunteers of police academy. Their job is to protect the flame. They are not law enforcement officials. During the relay, we have seen the violent nature of Tibet independence movement….. Question 15: Chairman of IOC had said China shall work on human right. You just said that IOC shall follow the Olympics charter and avoid the mixing of politics. Do you think he (the chairman of IOC) politicize the Olympics? China: I didn’t hear him ever said that. Some times people’s meaning gets distorted. Question 16: US’s congress just pass a resolution to request China open a dialog with Dalai Lama and foreign reporter and international investigators to Tibet. What is your comments? China: …. No force can stop the progress of Chinese people….Against these unreasonable pressure, Chinese will be more united. ….. Regards to international investigators, Europe and US had tons of race riots, did they ever invited international investigators for these riots? In these western countries, there are more than 10 China embassies be the subject of violence and suffers damage. (I demand) they be investigated. Afterward, we will know the culprit behind it. (my comments: I know there are some idiots in the congress. But did they really demand international investigators to Tibet? Hem, I wonder what are the chance of that ever happening!) Question 17: You said Tibet Youth League is a terrorist organization. Do you understand what that organization is all about? What is your comment on that organization? China: They had completely exposed themselves by their actions. Question 18: Question about Pakistan’s presidential visit. China: ….. Question 19: Australia government had said that the job to protect the torch shall be done by the local police. They will refuse the torch guards. What is the comments? China: Regards to how to do the torch relay, you shall ask IOC’s torch relay center. We are cooperating with Australian government. We wish and believe Australia police will provide as well guaranty the necessary protection. (my comment: Interestingly, China’s position on this is completely flexible. Maybe this will provide a way out. Western politician can use this issue, through western media, to demonstrate to their constituent about their resolve. China won’t send the torch guards as long as west can provide the guaranty. West claim victory and everybody go home happy). Question 20: Tibet independence movement said that it is impossible for you to re-open Tibet by May 1st. Can you confirm? Chairman of IOC said that the problem of torch relay demonstrated that Olympics is in crisis. Do you agree with his assessment? Aren’t China responsible for this? China: (China’s) Tibet provincial government is working hard to stabilize the situation. You will have to ask them for the exact time line. The problem of the torch relay is caused by the disruptive force that intend to disrupt the torch relay. Question 21: Did the China Australian prime minister meeting talked about global warming issue? China: ….. Question 22: Question about the upcoming 6 nations talk on Iran nuclear weapon in China. China: …. Question 23: You just mention that in Tibet, religion freedom is guaranteed. But you won’t allow Tibetan to keep Dalai Lama’s portrait. Is that protecting religious freedom? China: I am not familiar with this exact issue. But I will repeat, our problem with Dalai Lama is not of religion or race, but of separatism. (my comment: She got to be a master debater in college. She sure know how to dodge a question). Question 24: Another question about the upcoming 6 nations talk on Iran nuclear weapon in China. China: …. Question 25: Will you allow foreigner to visit Tibet on May 1? China: Ask Tibet provincial government. That is not within the charter of foreign affair department. Question 26: Are there any restriction for the foreign reporters to visit western China (bordering Tibet)? China: All the places that still have restrictions are places that just went through riots. Local authority had the right to set individual policy to safe guard safety. You shall ask these questions to each individual local authorities. End of article -------------------------- Within about few hours (it would be 1 to 4am China time), there are about 241 comments left by the Chinese readers. Glancing through the comments give me the impression that 90% of the comments are for the government. 10% complained. Almost all the posters who complaint want the Chinese government to be even tougher. Actually, reading some of the forum posters in China make me wonder maybe France (or maybe us) shall boycott the game. If it becomes clear that all the troubles in Olympics relays occurs in the west, it might get ugly in Beijing. At this point, average Chinese are expecting trouble in Australia and India. But if there is a pattern that relay trouble only occurs in the industrial west nations, it might get ugly in Beijing for athletes from France, England, Australia, or/and US. It might be too early to tell, but a complete boycott may be the best thing to do.
Now I remember why I found it ironic that PRC supporters are feeling victimized by violent protesters. 3 years ago the Japanese government revised their textbooks to downplay wartime attrocities and violent protests erupted throughout China. http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/low/asia-pacific/4427379.stm [rquoter]Stone-throwing protesters have smashed windows at the Japanese embassy in the Chinese capital, Beijing, during a big rally against Japan's war-time past. Japanese-owned businesses also came under attack during the march, which thousands of protesters joined. The protests come less than a week after China criticised Japan for approving new school books which it says gloss over Japanese atrocities. Protests on this scale are very rare in China's tightly-regulated capital. Correspondents say the fact that Saturday's demonstration took place signals tacit acceptance, if not approval, by the authorities. ... "We want to express our feelings so the Japanese government knows what we think." Some smashed windows of a Japanese restaurant and others hurled bottles at a Japanese bank. [/rquoter] So while the PRC supporters have been trying to play up violent Tibetans willing to attack businesses and people because of there ethnic background the Chinese themselves aren't above such behavior either.
And if you saw the video that I posted the Dalai has already said that http://nbcsports.msnbc.com/id/22825...044616#24044616
I agree that the anti-Japan demonstrations did not end peacefully, and so does the anti-American one back in 1998 when the Chinese embassy was bombed, and those were wrong, and that we are years behind the US when it comes to demonstrate peacefully, but that doesn't mean that the riot in Tibet was right and the Chinese cannot be victims in violent attacks. And nobody was killed or seriously injured in those demonstrations, unlike the current riot in Tibet. In those demonstrations no one really wanted to hurt or kill another human being, whereas the riot in Tibet was intentionally violent from the very beginning. PRC government is possibly behind those demonstrations, but only in the sense of encouraging nationalism and not cracking them down like they would if they were against the government itself. I do believe that had those demonstrations gotten more violent, they would have been put out immediately by the police. The CCP is playing a dangerous game with the nationalism. On one hand it diverts people's attention to internal problems, but then it is also very difficult to control. And that's why the PRC government is taking such a hard stance when it comes to either Tibet or Taiwan, because if they don't, the nationalism of the mass will come back and bite their ar$e.
You have been quite active posting in the D&D in the last few days and you are just basically repeating yourself in most of the posts. If there is anyone who's on auto-pilot BORG here, it's you. Tinman = a BORG.
