Lillard better than Harden?

It was only a season ago when the Rockets only made an epic comeback in game 6 vs the Clippers, down 19 in the 2nd half they came back without Harden. Brewer dropped 15 in the 4th remember that?

THe problem is the way Harden plays there can be no CJ McCollum. THe only other guard he can co-exist with is Beverley. If McCollum was on the Rockets he wouldn't be nearly the same guy.

That said I do feel down the stretch Lillard could've/should've given it to McCollum and gotten out of the way.

 

The funny thing is Brewer and Josh smith didn't average 21 points like CJ McCollum did.

The other funny thing is Harden did co-exit with much better guard than McCollum in Westbrook. Lillard led the league in the average time of possessions this year and was being selfish in crucial moments of the last game, but he's the great leader though.

 

I gave credit to Harden for sitting on the bench while some scrubs led the team from behind and eventually won the series.

Talent wise harden is way better player than liliard but Liliard definitely has bigger heart than harden.

 

The problem with LOF's is that they are LOF's.

 

Oh, word?! You mean players improve when surrounded by other great players?! Bro! You've cracked the code!

 

Lillard has a higher ceiling. He is way more athletic than Harden and because of that, may eventually be a top notch defender. He's also a better shooter than Harden even today. Harden is better at flopping for fouls, but take away all the points he gets at the line on garbage flops that are ruining the game, his stats wouldn't look as good. Plus, he needs to rest on defense to have the energy to flop on offense. In fact, it's not just resting on defense. When he doesn't have the ball, instead of running around screens or helping facilitate ball movement, he just stands at the top and waits for the ball back.

 

No. Both Lillard and Harden ain't getting much better than where they are at now. Different is that Harden can play at an MVP level and Lillard simply can't.

Both guys have been in the league long enough to the point where 'Potential' shouldn't be in the discussion.

There are things they can do better, mentally...but they are not going to acquire new skills to add to their toolset.

Also, Lillard is a chucker. That is all.

 

Why is Lillard a chucker and Harden isn't? Both take a ton of 3 point shots and Lillard hit .375 and Harden was at .359. And don't even mention TS% which is the most deceptive stat of them all because it relies on refs falling for your flops...which they don't as often in the playoffs. I've always thought that they should count the FGA for shots taken while being fouled. Add all of those into the TS% equation and Harden's "advanced" stats don't look as good. Almost every guard is a chucker in today's NBA. I mean, Steph Curry takes just about the worst shots in league history...even worse than Kobe...but he's making them so does that automatically make him not a chucker? Same with Durant.

I don't think Lillard can get any better on the offensive end, but I think over time, he will improve on the defensive end. That's the next area of improvement that I think he will try to improve. There's no reason he can't be as good as CP3 on the defensive end with a little hard work. Lillard has a chip on his shoulder and uses that to drive him each year.

By the way, I've been insulted over and over on this site for saying that I think Klay Thompson is the much superior SG than James Harden. Has that debate been resolved yet? Thompson is an elite defender as they put him on the top wing for every team the Warriors play. But I'm almost thinking that he is a better offensive player than Harden now. He is a superior shooter and is much better at moving the ball when needed and scoring when needed. Plus, the Warriors kicked the crap out of the Rockets with Thompson and no Curry.

 

Lillard averaged 31.8 pts, 7.6 asts, 4.4 rebs, 1.6 stls on 36% shooting against the Warriors in 5 games

Harden averaged 26.6 pts, 7.6 asts, 5.2 rebs, 2.4 stls on 41% shooting against the Warriors in 5 games

 

TS is the way to go if you want to look at how efficient a player is on the offensive end.

You wanna compare Harden and Lillard, fine:

Lillard Career FG: 42,6%; 3FG: 37%; FGA: 16.9 averages 16PPG w/o FTs (21 PPG with FTS factored in)

Harden (as a Rocket): FG: 44.3%; 3FG: 36,7%; FGA: 17.9 averages 18,4PPG w/o FTS (27 PPG with FTs factored in)

So if you wanna go by FG% alone, Harden is still more efficient than Lillard. Also Harden was thrust into being the no1 option after playing as a sixth man, while Lillard had LMA to take pressure off him and now has a stud in CJ next to him - if you have other players who need to be guarded it helps you as a player, because simply you aren't the sole focus of opposing defenses.

Secondly, you can't just discount FTs because you feel like it (TS takes into account 2FG, 3FG and FT).

You can keep saying Harden is relying on the refs, if that is what you want to do - fact is, that Harden is attacking the rim, because he knows it's an efficient way of scoring. If he gets fouled, that's not his fault.

Also your notion that you don't get FT calls in the playoffs is wrong.

Harden averages 9.9 FTA during the regular season and 10 FTA during the playoffs (and that includes his 0 FTA game this year in game 1)

Lillard averages 5FTA during the regular season and 5.7 FTA during the playoffs.

While there are usually a few games during the season and sometimes in the playoffs, where refs seem to swallow there whistles when it comes to Harden drives - this usually doesn't last long. He has been drawing fouls at a high clip since he entered the league and this is not gonna change just cause, maybe you'd like it to change.

And just FYI, I think Lillard is a stud and a superstar in this league (just nowhere near Harden's level). Just pointed out where you are wrong.

Can't simply dismiss TS as a measure of efficiency, because you don't like it as an efficiency measure.

 

Harden averages just as many FTA and pretty much similar TS% in the playoffs compared to the regular season so you're just factually wrong there, but we don't even need to go to TS% to prove that Harden has been more efficient than Lillard in the postseason.

Harden had higher FG%, eFG% (which discounts free throws and only measures shooting efficiency), PER, and BPM in this year's playoffs and also career wise. Where's the discussion here?

Klay played against one of the worst defensive teams in the league (Houston & Portland), while Harden was literally the one-man-offense against a top defensive team in GSW and was being guarded by slew of elite defenders such as Iguodala, Draymond Green and 'a supposedly good defender (which numbers don't suggest BTW)' Klay Thompson. Not taking into account the level of opponent's defense when referring to postseason performance is very disingenuous.

Case in point :

Klay averaged 13.5 PPG (38.6 FG%, 26.3 3P%) 4.5 RPG 2.0 APG against San Antonio this season.

Harden averaged 39.5 PPG (47.3 FG%, 36.6 3P%) 7.5 RPG 8.3 APG against Portland this year.

Is Harden really that much better than Klay? or is San Antonio a significantly better defensive team than Portland is?

And yes, GSW is still top notch even without Curry because they are literally stacked in all 5 positions. Them beating our ass w/o Curry is no surprise and is not a strike against Harden nor point for Klay. Also, Draymond Green is universally regarded as the 2nd most important player in GSW, that's why D-Green finished 7th in MVP voting whereas Klay got 0 votes. When Curry goes out, Draymond leads GSW, not Klay. Klay is a good scorer, but he doesn't contribute anything else to help his team win. Can't rebound nor pass, and has terrible ball-handling skills for a guard. His defense is known to be good, but there's no evidence of that since pretty much all defensive metrics that exists says Klay is an overrated defender. D-Greene is the 2nd best player in GSW, and Klay is the 3rd wheel.
Saying Klay is better than Harden is like saying Dennis Rodman is better than Charles Barkley, because Rodman was the 3rd most important player for the Bulls when they won 72 in the regular season.

 

We have alot of idiots running rampant on here. CJ being a stud is due to Lillard's leadership now? LOL

He shot 37% in the playoffs, reading this thread you'd think he averaged 40 on 50/40/90. Next you'll hear Lillard carried the team defensively when he's the worst on that roster.

 

they are added in. that's what the .44*FTA part of the equation is. it's not .5 because some free throws are part of and1's, technicals, etc.

 

Well, the Spurs did have the best defense in the NBA this year so I'm not sure what this apples and oranges comparison is all about. Plus, you are only touching on the offensive aspects between Harden an Thompson. I'm assuming this discussion is whether Harden is a better offensive player than Thompson and not overall player. Because 50% of the game is on the defensive end and Klay Thompson has to play 2 ways getting tasked to cover the best wing of the oppenent while Harden is often hidden on the worst offensive player of the opponent. So if we are discussing offense only, the reason I think Thompson is better is because he moves without the ball better. In today's game, that is a key aspect to being the more valuable offensive player because you don't need to jam up all the other players on the team because you need to dribble out the shot clock before making a decision on a play. And on top of which, Thompson is a better shooter by a long margin. Harden is just very good at running into defenders to draw fouls but the NBA will change the rules eventually to prevent this sort of flop game that takes away from the entertainment value of basketball...much like they took away the Reggie Miller leg kick flop.

 

Lillard is more mature than Harden. That's about it. Hopefully, our next coach can address this issue next year.

As far as who is better at playing basketball between the two, that's not even a debate. Lillard is just not on Harden's level. That's okay, Lillard fans. Not many players are on Harden's level.

 

The comparison was made to make the point that Klay doing well against weak defensive teams in the playoffs proves nothing, especially since he was not very effective against the elite defense of SAS.

As an individual player, you can impact the game and contribute much more offensively than what a single player can do on the defensive end. Defense is half the game as a team, but not individually. Just go through the list of the past MVPs and count how many have DPOYs in their resume, and compare that number to how many were scoring/assist leaders. This is because you can almost single-handedly carry your team offensively, but defense is much more team-oriented in its nature.

Besides, Klay is an overrated defender anyway, there is no evidence to suggest that he is as good on defense as people suggest. Every single defensive metrics that exists shows Klay is a below average defender, and some even say while his on-ball D against smaller guards is good, his off-ball defense is not very impressive.

Offensively, Klay HAS to move without the ball since that's the only way he can score. He can't create his own shot because he's got terrible handles, so he has to make himself open and hope his teammates hit him at the right spot at the right time. There are numerous spot up shooters in this league that operates in this way, obviously they are not all better than Harden. It just means their offensive game is limited and dependent on the system and their teammates.

Harden is significantly more versatile scorer and better passer. He can create for his own as well as for his teammates. That's why you see Harden doing consistently better at metrics that measure individual offensive impact such as ORPM, OBPM, OWS, Ortg, etc. There is no question as to which of the two contributes more for his team offensively if you look at the evidence.

Drawing a lot of fouls is an immensely useful and legitimate skill that great two-guards in the past, namely MJ, Iverson, and D-Wade, utilized frequently. You simply can't do that if you aren't elite slasher in this league. Every single coach in the NBA (and even some GMs like Morey) preach that free throws are one of the most efficient ways to score in the basketball, and encourage their players to get to the line as much as possible. You would think that Harden's reputation among players would be pretty bad if they thought what he's doing is gimmicky as you suggest. Yet, he was voted as the player's MVP last year when he drew the most fouls of his career. You know why? because they actually admire Harden's ability to draw contact and get to the line. It's something that they've been taught to do, and WANT to do, but simply don't have the skillset to execute wisely in a timely fashion. Besides, NBA referees are not blind, they see what Harden is doing everyday and still have no problem calling whistles for him, because in majority of the cases, they are legitimate fouls. For instance, Harden extends his arm while attacking the rim so the defender mistakenly slaps his forearm instead of the ball, that's a legitimate skill, not a flop.

So to cap it off, Harden is one of the most versatile offensive players out there while Klay is 1-dimensional. Defensively, Klay is better but still greatly overrated, and individual defense simply doesn't have the same degree of impact that individual offense does. Harden scores more, rebounds more, assists more while putting up better RPM, BPM, Win Shares, WS/48, TS%, VORP, etc. There is literally not a single category where Klay does better, save for the three-pointers. And that's all he is, a spot-up shooter and the 3rd wheel for GSW behind Curry and Draymond Green.