Lieberman: "There is no humanitarian crisis in the Gaza Strip"

True, but there is a pattern. If I was Israel, I would also want to check anything that goes through, before they start firing Rockets and detonating bombs again.

 

This is not clear at all, ATW. You see a single Israeli commando boarding the plane while the boat's crew is already running around.

The problem with this incident is that the commandos with only their weapons and reported paintball guns raided the flotilla. They should have brought with them crowd control equipment as well.

It is becoming evident that Netanyahu thought this would be a quick operation without much resistance meaning the elite commandos alone should have been adequate, but the resistance from the crew is what brought this incident to light.

 

I'm not saying Israel handled this well. I'm just pointing out that describing the people on board as innocent "human rights activists" probably doesn't paint the full picture either - seems quite clear to me that this was first and foremost a propaganda mission with the goal to show up Israel (mission accomplished).

 

OK I think I understand better what you are saying. I was saying that neither side has been a trustworthy partner in the deal.

Because power is so much in the hands of the Israelis you are right. They have control of when and if they ease up and give concessions. But because that is the case, somebody from the outside can put some pressure or dangle some carrot to persuade them to be more cooperative. The carrot shouldn't be given until the process works. The same should be true of the Palestinians.

 

I think that was clear from the beginning, that is why I was surprised with this reaction of Israel. Normally they are excellent in the propaganda actions. But those people apparently thought this was the only way to accomplish anything in this situation.

It is just a sad situation, no one of us knows what is exactly happening. But the excessive violence that Israel is portraying doesn't show good intentions. I believe on both sides there are crazy people; unfortunately those crazy people seem to be in charge.

The blockade that Israel is using should be abandoned as fast as possible, people are suffering more than they should. The international community should pressure Israel to show more compassion. And stop treating the people in Gaza so badly.

 

The next flotilla will get into Gaza. The blockade will be broken. It is good to see the people of Gaza get food, shoes etc. This is a tough blow for the inhumane Israeli tactic of keeping the folks in Gaza at near starvation levels.

Sounds like an interesting place to visit, but I will never go there and spend money till apartheid is over.

.

 

I'm generally neutral on all things involving Israel/Palestine/Middle East, etc. because one can only worry themselves about so much. In all honesty, I care more for the hundreds of thousands of stray animals tortured, killed and abused every year in America - they aren't destroying themselves and are completely innocent, unlike all sides of this never-ending Middle East war.

That said, I find this incident interesting, in that while clearly the action by Israel was way way way over the top, all of the video evidence to date suggests that, regardless of whether you agree with them boarding the boat in the first place, the Israel soldiers were really really taking a beating, were heavily outnumbered, and it seems to me, given their weapons and situation, they took the only action they could. Unfortunately people died.

 

If on a boat in international waters a group of armed soldiers from a nation known to be hostile to the people I'm trying to help boards me, there is a decent chance I would try and fight back.

 

do you consider the boarding legal?

 

According some posters logic, if I am in a boat in international waters, and a group of people storm my boat trying to take my supplies, I should let them do it and not defend my self. Of course the people providing aid are gonna attack when their boats are boarded. They are protesting an illegal activity in Gaza, so why should they condone another illegal action on their boat with their supplies to provide relief. Just as anyone of us would fight back to protect our property.

Take out the names Israel, Palestine, and humanitarian aid, and replace them with Somalia, Pirates, and cargo ships and everyone is upset at atrocities committed in international waters. Not everything can be defended, even if you are a staunch supporter of Israel. Sometimes you have to man up and say, yea they were wrong, no if or buts about it. They were wrong in this action, and they were wrong in the blockade. Just because IDF allows tunnels, the Palestinians should be thankful? Forget all the labels of religion or nationalities, these are human beings, and we use the argument that they have tunnels? Stop being so stubborn.

 

They were trying to take supplies?

 

Yes they took them. Now they will "inspect them" and see what can go in to Gaza. Because they were bringing supplies that were originally banned (hence having to bring them) Israel took the supplies, and all of us know that the people of Gaza will not see it, and if they do it will be a small fraction of the original intention.

 

I don't know yet, but I don't think so. The odd part is that it was done in International Waters, when potentially another 40 miles closer to shore and it wouldn't have been in International Waters anymore...am I reading that correct?

Short of an extremely valid reason otherwise, I think they should have waited until the ships were in Israeli waters.

I think you have pinpointed the issue to me...the aftermath is of course because of the deaths, but as I note below in further response, I don't see how the blame of the death can be placed on either party really...certainly not the IDF soldiers who seem to have come under attack...

BUT, did they legally board in the first place? It's a good question.

I think there's a case to be made, from an Israeli perspective, that they don't care whether it was legal or not (i.e. - comparing to if America was about to come under attack from a ship in International Waters and we pre-emptively destroyed said ship, I don't think the fact that it wasn't technically legal would be of much concern to most Americans)...but I don't think that case holds much water here.

Why not just wait until it was "legal"??

that's what I would do...but I guess that's just me...I'm not generally a violent person. Now if I was being "attacked", sure I'd fight back, but it's certainly not clear who starting attacking first yet, and from the videos, at least, you see a lot of IDF soldiers getting beatdown with metal rods. But who knows at this point.

This makes absolutely no sense to me. Why is this something that would happen, "of course"? The word "humanitarian" is being thrown around a lot here. Which to me, means people who don't get all violent when they are boarded - especially considering it's not like them being boarded by the IDF came as a surprise.

I'm not condoning the boarding, but I am arguing that the people on the ship were knowingly engaging in an activity that would highly highly likely result in this type of response by the IDF - this meaning, being boarded, stopped, turned around, etc, as apparently happened calmly on the other ships. So when their ship is boarded, IF (stressing IF) they decided to instigate a serious violent situation by attacking those who were doing the boarding, it is not surprisingly and not, to me, "wrong" of the IDF soldiers to ultimately resort to gunfire, which resulted in loss of life.

which loss of life has caused the big to-do. if this was just the baording without the violence, it would still be newsworthy, and many would still be questioning the legality of it, and those on both sides would still be arguing their cases, but it wouldn't nearly as newsworthy or as much of a story.

These situations aren't really comparable...unless you completely change all of the players and the political situation as you've done...

 

it was an analogy. I didn't mean it in the literal sense.

 

if someone takes over your ship in international waters wtf are you supposed to do?

Biased perspective once again, just declare your god as Israel right now. Because it can do no wrong.

 

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/world/middle_east/10208027.stm


Witnesses cast doubt on Israel's convoy raid account

Eyewitness accounts from ships raided by Israeli commandos have cast doubt on Israel's version of events that led to the deaths of at least 10 people.

German pro-Palestinian activist Norman Paech said he had only seen wooden sticks being brandished as troops abseiled on to the deck of the ship.

Israel says its soldiers were attacked with "knives, clubs and other weapons" and opened fire in self defence.

The raid led to widespread condemnation and the UN has called for an inquiry.
The six ships, carrying aid and campaigners, had sailed from Cyprus in a bid to break Israel's blockade of the Gaza Strip.

"This was not an act of self-defence," said Mr Paech, a politician, as he arrived back in Berlin wrapped in a blue blanket.

"Personally I saw two and a half wooden batons that were used... There was really nothing else. We never saw any knives.

"This was an attack in international waters on a peaceful mission... This was a clear act of piracy," he added.

Mr Paech had been a passenger on the Turkish passenger ship Mavi Marmara where most, if not all, of the deaths occurred.

Fellow German activist Inge Hoeger said they had been on the ships "for peaceful purposes".

"We wanted to transport aid to Gaza," she said. "No-one had a weapon."

She added: "We were aware that this would not be a simple cruise across the sea to deliver the goods to Gaza. But we did not count on this kind of brutality."

Activist Bayram Kalyon, arriving back in Istanbul, had also been a passenger on the Mavi Marmara.

"The captain... told us 'They are firing randomly, they are breaking the windows and entering inside. So you should get out of here as soon as possible'. That was our last conversation with him."

Diplomatic sources in Ankara have said at least four of those killed were Turkish. Turkish Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan said the assault was a "bloody massacre" and must be punished. He said Israel should not test Turkey's patience.
UN criticism

Further criticism of Israel came from UN Secretary General Ban Ki-moon on Tuesday.

In an interview with the AFP news agency he said Israel's blockade of Gaza was responsible for the deadly raid.

"Had Israelis heeded to my call and to the call of the international community by lifting the blockade of Gaza, this tragic incident would not have happened," he said.

Nato Secretary General Anders Fogh Rasmussen called on Israel to release people and boats it had seized.

He spoke after an emergency meeting of Nato ambassadors in Brussels called by Turkey. Renewed violence broke out in Gaza on Tuesday, with five Palestinians reportedly killed by Israeli fire.

Two Palestinian gunmen were shot dead after crossing the border in the south of the territory, a military spokesman said.

Three more people died in an Israeli strike in the north of Gaza, according to Gaza's emergency services. Israel said it carried out an air strike after two rockets were fired from Gaza.

Following the Israeli sea-born raid, Egyptian President Hosni Mubarak ordered the border crossing between Egypt and the Gaza Strip to be opened.

The Rafah crossing has been closed since 2007, although special medical cases are occasionally allowed through.

The Egyptian state news agency said the latest opening was to allow humanitarian aid through. It is not clear how long it will be kept open.

The UN Security Council issued a statement after deliberating through the night.

It said an investigation should be "prompt, impartial, credible and transparent". It also condemned the "acts" which led to the deaths.

LEGALITY OF CONVOY RAID

* The UN Charter on the Law of the Sea says only if a vessel is suspected to be transporting weapons, or weapons of mass destruction, can it be boarded in international waters. Otherwise the permission of the ship's flag carrying nation must be sought.
* The charter allows for naval blockades, but the effect of the blockade on civilians must be proportionate to the effect on the military element for the blockade to be legally enforceable.
* A ship trying to breach a blockade can be boarded and force may be used to stop it as long as it is "necessary and proportionate".
* The Israeli Defense Forces say soldiers acted in self-defence.
* An investigation, either by the UN or by the ship's flag-carrier Turkey, is required to find if the use of force was proportionate to a claim of self defence.

 

I'll try make an analogy. Let's say a group of American protesters are in a bus on their way to an American city to stage an illegal protest. But they are still 40 miles away and at the time not doing anything illegal. A group of armed men suddenly board their bus. What if the men try to defend their bus from the armed men who illegaly boarder their bus? Will you "understand" if they get shot?

 

Thats a pretty crappy analogy.

 

uh...yes. is this some kind of trick question?

if armed men come onto the bus, and say we're armed, you can't come any further, turn away, and the busgoers response is, "F! You, we are going to our protest whether we have to bludgeon you or not", and then they attempt to bludgeon the armed men, well...yeah, it will be completely understandable when the armed men, now being bludgeoned and attacked themselves, ultimately resort to gunfire. this seems straight-forward to me.

would it be a sad situation? sure.

but the real issue to debate would be whether or not they should have boarded the bus in the first place, not whether or not the use of gunfire was the appropriate response...which in the fleshed out analogy, it would ultimately be an acceptable response.

what happened on the other ships? why couldn't they do that? seems like a better result...

 

If this is the case then it seems even more foolish for the IDF to have taken this action. As I said earlier they could've just escorted the ships in have them unload publically and reaped a PR benefit.

That makes no sense either though as why didn't then IDF cameras show militants or weapons? As if there were the IDF certainly would've want that known. All the IDF videos show are some angry people with improvised weapons. I haven't seen in the IDF videos any evidence of militants or weapons going to arm Hamas.