Lieberman: "There is no humanitarian crisis in the Gaza Strip"

Rumor has it that Turkey is going to escort the next flotilla.

 

In my opinion, you seem to quite often overestimate the altruism and wisdom of democracies. I really don't know any that act like you appear to think they act. Countries, no matter what type of government, operate in what they believe to be their self interest.

I'm saying that the Palestinians should be mindful of basic psychology and sociology, as opposed to succumbing to the righteous fury of indignation. When you are the mouse, you have to plan your actions several moves ahead whereas the elephant can mostly get away with just reacting to each situation in real time.

 

See, that is anger and rage. As I said, I get the power of that. But please try to step back and ask yourself if inflaming anger and digging the trenches just a little bit deeper on both sides of the front lines makes peace more or less likely.

From my perspective, the chance of a peace in the near to medium term, which was in the ICU on life support, is now as dead as a doornail. The goal should be to bring Israelis and Palestinians closer together, not farther apart.

Let me repeat the question I asked earlier. What is more important to you, sticking it to the rogue authority, or helping Palestinians? If you want peace, that peace will necessarily include that rogue authority as a party in some form.

 

No, the power is in the flotilla's ability to expose the real implications of Israel's siege of the Gaza Strip, morally and legally. That power is proportional to that exerted by the IDF in thwarting its progress. There will be an international response, and the flotilla very well might still achieve its goal of finally breaking the blockade. That is real power, not posturing.

There you go again, posing the same zero-sum scenario you decried in an earlier post. Any solution will necessarily result in the inflamed egos of the hard liners on both sides. Your alternative to actions like the flotilla, which actually gives agency to the Palestinian people, is basically to do nothing. That position will soon be invalidated, if it hasn't already been by the actions of the flotilla activists.

 

I'll bite - helping Palestinians. I'll even give you that "peace will necessarily include that rogue authority as a party in some form." Still, I think putting pressure on rogue state is the right tactic (in terms of efficacy, I'm not making a moral judgment). When given carte blanche to do whatever it wants, the rogue state has shown no interest in peace and wants to keep the current status quo forever if they can (unless you consider the Palestinians' current state of affairs "peaceful").

 

Does the IDF have tasers? Maybe the US needs to add tasers to their arms supply to Israel. Could have minimized the PR fallout a lot if people didn't actually die.

 

You have an entire group of people suffocating in ghaza?


Is this how unwilling Israel is to help them get basic aid?

If they are all for the peace why aren't they allowing an injured person to goto the hospital? They are shooting the medics and doctors instead.

 

So in your opinion a comprehensive peace agreement between Israel and Palestine is greater today than it was a week ago?

A zero sum game would be saying that helping the Palestinians necessarily involves hurting the Israelis. I'm saying they are separate, unlinked goals, and I'm asking if you could only choose one of the two, which one would it be. What I'm talking about is the antithesis of a zero sum.

 

Can you provide figures on the numbers of Palestinian doctors and nurses that Israelis have shot this month in order to prevent Palestinians from receiving care or going to the Hospital?

 

Here's a good documentary from Vice on the Wall and its impact on lives in the West Bank and Gaza.

http://www.vbs.tv/watch/vbs-news/palestine-vs-israel-against-the-wall-1-of-2

<script src="http://www.vbs.tv/vbs_player.js?width=480&height=270&ec=FmdHRnOgEv5gBjmUSD6k-0elJxdAaqnM&st=VBS%20News&pl=http://www.vbs.tv/watch/vbs-news/palestine-vs-israel-against-the-wall-1-of-2" type="text/javascript" charset="utf-8"></script>

 

I made a mistake about the territory then. This is a valid point, but anyway, in few hours they would have entered Israeli territorial water and things were going to be the same...

And you have no *ucking idea about anything you are posting about. The truth is that there are hundreds of smuggling tunnels that enter the strip, some wide enough to let goats pass through . There is an unwritten contract between the IDF and the local merchantmen in the Gaza strip that as long as they don't attack us, no one is hurting it (and it helps in keeping the peace because those tunnels give great profit to their owners and maybe to Hamas, and when the air force attacks them it hurts them badly).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaza_Strip_smuggling_tunnels

Those tunnels bring them enough merchandise for their living, and enough cement for building and I am sure they can let a wheelchair pass through .About medical supplies, Israel let special cases to get medical visa and healthcare in its' hospitals.

I recall that a few years ago the government wanted to start lifting the blockade, because Hamas kept the border quiet for months and the result was the renewal of the attacks, not by Hamas, but by a merchant that didn't want to lose money because of the removal of the blockade.

Don't throw all your fire on us, not everyone is starving there, there are always people who become rich and powerful during harsh times and they will try to keep the situation bad as it is.

I think The main problem there is the unemployment, not the lack of merchandise. And this is funny, because before the disengagement plan many Gazans were working at the fields in the illegal Jewish settlements That the world hated so much. But after we left the settlements for them, they couldn't take the fields for themselves because Gaza water supplies are limited .At least by the rumours I have heard, the situation in Gaza became much worse.

Yes, Israel should be blamed for some of the problems in there, and so is Hamas and the other terror groups. But the solution will not be as simple as letting merchandise flow freely. This will only weaken the forces that control the current smuggle economy and push them into renewing the violence while letting more weapons flow into the strip.

The solution should be based on mutual trust and recreating the economic ties that were lost after the Rabin regime years ago, so the unemployment rate will decrease. It is a shame that the UN is so concerned with getting political points by condemning us and giving them aid, instead of trying to solve their problems in the right way ...

About the birth defects, if the story is real, the use of some kinds of phosphorous for light, during night fights is legal by the international law. I believe other armies use it as well (in Afghanistan for example), just that you don't hear about the consequences. I am sure that after what happened, the IDF won't use it again in the future.

They didn't, this isn't the first ship they boarded. They put the militants and weapons on a different ship far from than the cameras . This is why you didn't see the action on TV.

 

The military in Turkey holds supreme power over their government and has the final say. So I really doubt that they will endeavor to engage in any potential armed conflict with Israel. It would be like the hand puppet biting the arm.

On the contrary, the most likely result from all of this will be nothing. In fact already within the first 15 hours CNN and BBC have made the issue a backstory, less relevant than Justin Bieber. Things will carry on as usual and the Israel govt. will continue annexing more land and water resources like clockwork.

 

lol :grin:

 

Spoiler

 

"Humanitarian aid" uncovered in the video.

 

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That video was uploaded 05/11/2009. If I recall correctly, the incident happened yesterday.

 

Very clear from this film that the "humanitarian activists" attacked first.

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