Lieberman: "There is no humanitarian crisis in the Gaza Strip"

Gaza has nearly the largest population growth rate in the world.

 

And does this justify them killing these 15 people? The least they can do is try to get people to change their mindset about them, and this surely does not help. Plus, I highly doubt the majority of the world hates them.

 

I don't think it matters if they were in Israeli or international waters.




San Remo Manual on International Law Applicable to Armed Conflicts at Sea, 12 June 1994

SECTION V : NEUTRAL MERCHANT VESSELS AND CIVIL AIRCRAFT

Neutral merchant vessels

67. Merchant vessels flying the flag of neutral States may not be attacked unless they:

(a) are believed on reasonable grounds to be carrying contraband or breaching a blockade, and after prior warning they intentionally and clearly refuse to stop, or intentionally and clearly resist visit, search or capture;
(b) engage in belligerent acts on behalf of the enemy;
(c) act as auxiliaries to the enemy s armed forces;
(d) are incorporated into or assist the enemy s intelligence system;
(e) sail under convoy of enemy warships or military aircraft; or
(f) otherwise make an effective contribution to the enemy s military action, e.g., by carrying military materials, and it is not feasible for the attacking forces to first place passengers and crew in a place of safety. Unless circumstances do not permit, they are to be given a warning, so that they can re-route, off-load, or take other precautions.

http://www.icrc.org/ihl.nsf/385ec082b509e76c41256739003e636d/7694fe2016f347e1c125641f002d49ce

 

The statement was that Gazans are "dying slowly". They are not dying but rather increasing.

Living in Gaza sucks bad enough in real life. Hyperbolic stories about Auschwitz style mass starvation deaths aren't necessary.

 

I didn't say it did.

I guess you don't understand what I said. They believe that it is entirely futile. So assuming momentarily that their belief is correct, what you describe as "the least they can do" is inherently a waste of time.

I think if you look at the global public opinion figures, you might find otherwise. Globally, the only country receiving as much negative opinion as Israel is Iran.

 

They need to change their belief system. There is no reason for anyone to hate on them for no reason. But yes, it is actions like these (killing innocent activists) that cause the negative opinion.

 

It's too bad that the White House Chief of Staff, Rahm Israel Emanuel, is not in Washington right now to advise President Obama on this pressing issue.....as he is currently taking a family vacation in Israel :grin:

 

You are playing a zero sum game. In order to make things better for Palestinians, we have to fight and defeat Israel. Hyperbole helps people hunker down and build up the entrenchments.

My preference would be to get people to lower defenses and work together to improve life for both Palestinians and Israelis. This is why I think doing things like trying to break an Israeli blockade, or making up stories about radioactive plagues are counterproductive. These things only make the Israelis dig in their heels. They empower the people in Israel who say, "See! Its us against the world! Its us or them! They are so out to get us that they make up lies!" And in doing so, it lets the extremists ignore realities - the things where I can point to an injustice so obvious and irrefutable that even the hardest of hardliner can't ignore it.

The best analogy I can think of right now is the Arizona immigration law. All that law has done has been to make both sides of the immigration issue get their hackles up, dig in their heels, and made sure that nothing ever happens. It isn't dealing with the immigration issue, but making sure the conflict is going to continue forever.

Righteous indignation certainly is popular. I appreciate that there is a great joy in the monochromatic clarity of it. But it doesn't help the people of Gaza unless you are looking to force things toward a grand final battle with Israel in which only one side comes out victorious.

You talk a lot about the Israelis "goading the Palestinians" into destroying the peace process. What I see here is the Gaza peace activists just goaded a bunch of 20 year old, testosterone soaked kids in the Israeli special forces into destroying it. Again, if your goal is one-side-or-the-other zero sum, I guess that makes sense.

IMO, the key to helping Gazans without making it zero sum with the Israelis isn't making the Israelis feel threatened. It is the opposite - making the Israelis feel less threatened - convincing them that if they let the Gazans live free and import whatever they want, that they won't dedicate their new found freedom to blowing up Israelis. Inflaming the Israelis with heart-string tugging lies only makes sure that Gazans stay in their current circumstances until you are able to invade and destroy Israel - at which time you create the same conflict in reverse.

What is more important, defeating Israel or helping Palestine? I seriously wish people would spend some time thinking about that. I think for many people, the answer is, "What's the difference?"

 

It is wonderfully simple to say this, but like so many things, the reality is that expecting an entire group of people to change their belief systems because you say so isn't practical.

If you are a Jew, the entire history of your people that you are taught starts with Romans destroying Masada, goes to being called "Jesus killers" during the middle ages, on to de Torquemada and the Inquisitions, then to pogroms in Russia, and finishes with the Nazis in Germany.

Imagine the way that Muslims react to the word "Crusades" or the way that people in America react when they think of Osama bin Laden and his hate for the West and make that the entire non-stop story of your people's existence from the beginning of time.

From a Jewish perspective, whether there is reason for people to hate them or not, people seem to have demonstrated a remarkable propensity to do so anyway. As a Jew, the question has to be when have people not hated you for no reason.

 

Unfortunately, I think what you posted there is true for many people in the islamic world. I can see how Israel might overreact sometimes, as it is clear that many people in the Islamic world have Israel's destruction on their mind.

 

Thanks for NOT allaying my fears, it sounds even worse than I thought

Would it be fair to say the victimhood complex is deeply ingrained in right-wing Israelis, not to mention extreme paranoia? I am not a right-wing Israeli but I do know quite a few, and they all seem to be of the same mold, the worst type of group think possible. I would like to dismiss their rants half of the time but then I realize I cannot, not when they are effectively the majority voice in Israel today.

A damn shame, I tell ya

 

That was the entire point of breaking the blockade! A humanitarian flotilla boarded in international waters is exactly the kind of exposure of extremists that has the power to make people rethink policy directions. Of course, the IDF knew this, which is why they attacked at night and attempted to control the media exposure with embedded reporting.

But it won't, and indeed can't, continue forever. The demographic trends are overwhelming. Immigrants and immigrant allies can gain power by working towards solidarity. The same holds in Gaza. You have to make a show of resistance against an oppressive power in order to expose its intentions.

 

The analogy would be the Iran/US nuclear issue.

It is wonderful to claim that Iran should be the one to back down, but they are the point of inflection. It is their behavior we are trying to change, not the other way around. If there is to be any resolution but war or continued conflict, the USA needs to be the one who backs off, at least for a brief respite to allow the situation to lubricate itself.

Its just the reality of the issue.

 

That has to do with merchant vessels. Mark Regev is an idiot for this thinking that is an appropriate defense to boarding a civilian ship on a humanitarian mission in international waters.

 

I should also add: that is not a legitimate belief and it is a poor attempt at skirting responsibility for one's actions. It is tantamount to having a carte blanche to do whatever the heck you want, because the "world" will just never understand, right?

It also distracts from the facts, and the facts are Israel CAN do something about its image, as most of it is self-inflicted and caused by right-wing politicians and the settler movement in the Orthodox community. The Arabs may never embrace Israel, but that is not really material to the discussion here, since they hardly constitute the entire world of nations. If Israel had remained true to its secular, liberal roots and worked diligently and HONESTLY to end the occupation by reaching a legitimate settlement with the Palestinians, then progress would have been made. Much of the realization today, especially in Europe, is that Israel has not been true and honest in its pursuit of peace, and it often acts with a sense of impunity or belligerence, which is reflected in some of its policies as well. Of course the Palestinians are to blame also, but Israel as the real power in the conflict has a lot of leverage and therefore, right or wrong, will get their fair share of the blame. Israel has not always seized the opportunity when presented.