Lieberman: "There is no humanitarian crisis in the Gaza Strip"

Unless this is what you were hoping for, so you can die as a "martyr".

 

Another example that comes to mind is the dumbasses who went hiking near Iran. I have no love for the leaders of the Islamic Republic. Hopefully that is clear. But if you are an American looking for a neat place to go hiking you should have enough sense to realize that the Iranian government is wary of Americans, and they might think you are a spy.

In that situation if the Americans take the risk hiking on the border with Iran, and the Iranians pick them up, I still don't like the Iranian government, and I think they Iranian government should let them go, but I have to say that the dumbasses should have had some inkling that something might happen and if they found the idea of being arrested as spies to be a bad idea, they should have found somewhere else to hike. And if they come to arrest you for being a spy and you try to resist, saying "No, no, I'm actually three feet inside Iraq! You have no authority here!" and get killed, well the Iranians are wrong, but you aren't entirely innocent in the outcome.

 

Once again, you miss the entire point. The flotilla was carrying humanitarian aid only, as verified upon its departure. The IDF violently intercepted the voyage because it is precisely their goal to monitor and micromanage the living conditions of the Gaza Palestinians.

 

How did their plan backfire?

 

I understand the point perfectly well. The Soviet nuclear missle ships were carying vital defensive weapons to República de Cuba to defend against American imperialism and hostility. The Americans were trying to monitor and micromanage the living condition of the entire Western Hemisphere.

 

Sorry, but what weapons were the flotilla activists conveying?

 

The Israelis were trying to figure that out. There were a number of items on the ships that Israel is not allowing into Gaza. If Iran loads up palates onto ships and sends them to the USA saying, "American customs, no need to check. We guarantee you there is nothing on this ship that you don't like", do you think the American customs agents would just take their word for it?

If boats coming from Colombia say, "We guarantee you there are no drugs on board, American Coast Guard, so no need to check", do you think the Coast Guard would thank them, take their word for it, and head on their way?

 

Most of the Jewish people in Israel are not of European origin. It's a small majority, admittedly, but still. Many are originally from Iran, Yemen, Turkey, North Africa (esp. Morocco), and Iraq. When most immigrated here in the 50's they were Ladino and Arabic speakers.

Most AMERICAN Jews are Ashkenazi, but that's not the case here. Askenazi Jews are 47.5% of the population, 20.9% of them Russians, who in many cases don't often even identify as being Jewish.

The ethnic division of The Jewish population of Israel (including non Halackic Russians) as of 2008 is as follows.

Ethnic Makeup of Jewish Population of Israel[citation needed]
TOTAL 5,818,000 100%
Mizrahi Jews and Sephardic Jews 2,921,000 50.2%
Morocco 800,000 15.2%
Iraq 404,000 7.7%
Yemen 295,000 4.9%
Iran 236,000 4.0%
Algeria/Tunisia 224,000 3.8%
Other Asia 150,000 2.5%
Turkey 147,000 2.5%
Libya 136,000 2.3%
Egypt 112,000 1.9%
Other Asia 200,000 1.7%
India/Pakistan 76,000 1.3%
Latin America 25,000 0.04%
Other Africa (Not South Africa) 3,000 0.05%
Beta Israel 130,000 2.2%
Ethiopia 130,000 2.2%

Ashkenazi Jews 2,767,000 47.5%
Russia 1,018,000 20.9%
Poland 400,000 8.3%
Romania 351,000 7.6%
Other Europe 168,000 3.7%
North America (Including 4,000 African American Black Hebrews) 165,000 2.8%
Germany/Austria 160,000 2.7%
Latin America 82,000 1.4%
Bulgaria/Greece 97,000 1.9%
Hungary 63,000 1.3%
Czechoslovakia 60,000 1.2%
South Africa 20,000 0.4%

source: wikipedia

Ashkenazi Jews figured prominently in the early development of the state during the Mandate period and in the major political parties, etc, and still occupy most positions of power. Much of the reason Likud gained momentum under Begin in the 70's and turned the country ever rightward was because he exploited the race issue, and got the Mizrachi/Sephardi votes.

The country is divided in many different ways and it would be a great mistake to presume that the demographics of the place resemble a Jewish neighborhood in the US.

I disagree. What it means is that the hardliners become the only voice, because younger people are removing themselves from the equation. In Israel it's the same -- the Zionist left is nearly dead. No alternative has replaced it in any meaningful way, so Zionism, which used to be inclusive of secularists, socialists, intellectuals, and one-staters no longer is, and has become the sole domain of religious extremists and nationalists who have no respect for democracy.

The Zionism of Herzl, Buber or even Ben-Gurion has no place in the Israel (or the Unites States for that matter) of today.

Choosing not to identify with Zionism and the State of Israel means succumbing to apathy and letting the most extreme elements define it. Those who advocate peaceful co-existence and the rule of law become increasingly invisible and stop caring, stop voting and let the authoritarian culture creep bit by bit.

 

I would have found both the US and Soviets to be at blame.

I agree that it is stupid for one side to try and pick a fight and then act innocent. That is what Israel is doing. Just because they have the forces doesn't mean they aren't picking the fight. Had they stopped the boats closer to the blockade, I would side more with Israel. But them bullying aid vessels is picking a fight, and they aren't innocent, and shouldn't have been surprised that one of the ships fought back.

 

Ok. I can pretty much agree with this statement 100%. Whoever in Israel approved the mission plan is a professional grade idiot. He should be arrested for incompetence. I think even most Israelis agree with that.

 

Several logical leaps in this post.

 

You damn well know this is bull****. The cargo was publicized and inspected upon the flotilla's departure. The activists knew there was a high probability that they would be boarded, and actually having weapons on their boats would have been disastrous for their mission.

 

I most assuredly don't. How much import/export have you done if you think a country will just take the word of people in another country as to the nature of cargo? I know that the cargo had been brought to any other Mediterranean port, the country where it was going wouldn't have "just taken their word for it" either, but would have had it inspected by local customs officials. If I send a box through the post to stable European countries from the stable USA, the box arrives ripped to sheds by customs officials 99% of the time.

 

And of course none of that is relevant when we're dealing with a blockade enforced in international waters. Furthermore, the flotilla organizers offered to allow an independent party, such as a representative from the UN, to inspect their cargo upon landfall. The IDF knew there were no weapons being conveyed to Gaza. Sources have even admitted that they expected no resistance to the boarding action.

 

Under U.S. pressure, Netanyahu may ease Gaza siege
source:HaAretz

PM considers easing naval blockade on Gaza; Clinton: We are evaluating ways of expanding flow of aid to Gaza while protecting Israel's interests.

By Aluf Benn and Natasha Mozgovaya

Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu is willing to consider easing the naval blockade on the Gaza Strip, as well as possible creative solutions for monitoring the goods that are allowed to enter the Hamas-ruled territory.


Netanyahu has also expressed willingness to involve international bodies in the enforcement of the naval siege.

The New York Times reported Thursday that the U.S. administration maintains that the naval siege cannot continue in its current format, and has apparently demanded that Israel ease its restrictions on the types of goods that are allowed to enter the Strip. The issue was brought up during a discussion between senior U.S. National Security Council officials and Netanyahu's envoys Isaac Molho and Uzi Arad at the White House, both of whom returned to Israel from Washington on Wednesday.

Netanyahu has communicated to the American administration that he is open to new and creative ideas, but that he believes that any decision that is made must not be made lightly, and that any new format should be examined carefully ahead of time.

The blockade on the border crossings between Israel and Gaza are not expected to be affected by the possible easing of the naval blockade.

Following a meeting with Indian Foreign Minister S. M. Krishna, U.S. Secretary of State Hillary Clinton commented on the issue, saying that "we are evaluating ways of expanding the flow of humanitarian assistance to the people of Gaza while protecting Israel's legitimate security interests."

"There's a great deal of consultation going on, as well as work in our own government, to determine ideas that we would share with the Israelis and other international partners, because as I have said before, we have to deal with the situation in Gaza in a way that both protects Israel's legitimate security interests and fulfills the needs of the people of Gaza. And that is what we're seeking," she added.

Clinton also reiterated the U.S. position that "we expect the Israeli government to conduct a prompt, impartial, credible and transparent investigation that conforms to international standards and gets to all the facts surrounding this tragic event."

"We are open to different ways of assuring that it is a credible investigation, including urging appropriate international participation," she said.

 

I've said no such thing. As I stated multiple times, and which you have conveniently forgotten, the legality of Israels actions are unclear, as both sides have a case.

Heres an article that explains arguments from both sides.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/06/01/AR2010060102934.html

 

If that's not what you said I apologize, but if that isn't what your were trying to get across, then why is it significant that the Israelis radioed ahead?

 

I don't know and I never said anything about radioing ahead. But I can make a guess, Israel was probably crossing all it Ts and dotting all its i's before taking an incredibly controversial action. I think international law requires an advance warning before ships can be boarded, but I'm not completely sure. Overall I don't think it has much significance as everyone on the MV Mavi Marmara knew the Israelis were coming to board their ship.

 

You are right. I just looked back. It was middle man who mentioned it and not you. My apologies.

 

that's mighty white of him