Yes. Surfguy, don't take all this as a raised middle finger, okay? The word "racist" is inflamatory, but here are two accepted definitions: 1. The belief that race accounts for differences in human character or ability and that a particular race is superior to others. 2. Discrimination or prejudice based on race. Nobody's accusing your statements of reflecting #1, but it's hard to say that your postings don't reflect #2. And maybe you have a good, realistic argument, but it's, um, still largely #2, if you know what I mean.
OK, this thread inspired me to do a little digging on Howard Dean, D-VT. Any Dem making these quotes deserves a look... "I oppose virtually every position he has taken," Dean said of Bush, "I fundamentally believe the president's policies are very bad for this country. The ultimate end of his fiscal policy is Argentina." "We can't have a prescription benefit if the Congress and the president are cutting taxes for people who make more than $350,000 a year, I'm actually much more conservative than George Bush is in terms of budget. I do not believe in borrow-and-spend politics." “I think the party needs a very forthright message and we cannot be intimidated by the conventional wisdom in Washington that the president has a 75 percent favorability rating.” A deficit budget puts important "safety net" social programs at risk of being cut, Dean said. "I'm driven by what I believe in. I believe that my vision of America is accepted by a great many more people than his vision of America is," Dean said of Bush. Here's his official bio: Howard Dean called the governorship "the greatest job in Vermont" when he took the state's top post in 1991. In the decade since, Gov. Howard Dean has lead Vermont with a firm fiscal discipline, an unwavering commitment to children's health care and education, and a keen environmental awareness. A common sense moderate who firmly believes that social justice can only be accomplished through strong financial management, Gov. Dean has cut the income tax twice, removed the sales tax on most clothing, and reduced the state's long-term debt. Not only did the governor pay off an inherited $70 million deficit, he worked with lawmakers to build "rainy day" reserves to help the state through any future economic downturn. During the Dean tenure, more than 41,000 new jobs have been created, the state's minimum wage has climbed twice, incentive programs have expanded to help downtowns attract new businesses, and tax incentives were created to attract and keep new companies. If fiscal management is Gov. Dean's trademark, improving the lives of Vermont's children is his passion. A physician, Gov. Dean strengthened the Dr. Dynasaur program to guarantee health coverage to virtually every child in Vermont age 18 and under. Vermont has one of the lowest uninsured rates in the country -- and highest rates of immunized children. Gov. Dean has expanded programs to help seniors afford prescription drugs, and signed into law one of the toughest managed care consumer protections in the U.S. It is preservation of Vermont's precious natural resources and landscapes that the governor considers his legacy. Gov. Dean worked with local communities and the federal government to preserve more than one million acres of farmland, shorefront, working forests and wilderness. Under the Dean administration, 76 of the state's leaking landfills were safely closed, and Vermont became a leader in the move to reduce mercury pollution and stop power plants from polluting the air. Gov. Dean has created bikeways, lead the effort to restore commuter rail service in Vermont, and lead a strong, coordinated attack on sprawl. Working with lawmakers, prosecutors, judges and law enforcement, Gov. Dean has cracked down on violent crime in Vermont and ensured that violent felons spend time behind bars. He has fought to protect family farms, increased the number of women and minorities in judgeships and other prominent positions, cracked down on domestic violence, and put Vermont in the forefront for child support collections. Gov. Dean is a physician who previously shared a medical practice with his wife, Dr. Judith Steinberg. He received his bachelor's degree from Yale University in 1971 and his medical degree from Albert Einstein College of Medicine in New York City in 1978. He served in the Vermont House from 1982 to 1986; was elected lieutenant governor in 1986; became governor in 1991 with the death of then-Gov. Richard Snelling.
As for my initial two statements above, they were meant to mean that I believe a Jewish president would have more cards stacked against him than a non-Jewish president and, as a result, would not be as effective on his foreign policy with regards to the ME and Arab world. I believe he would be viewed as guilty by association without being given a fair chance to do his job because of his race association. I believe he would be viewed as biased on the situation and I think he probably is(how could he not be?). It may even create more problems with Arabs viewing it as an even more unfair situation and leaning toward extremism even moreso than now. I think this would present more obstacles to overcome a situation where there are already many obstacles. I do happen to believe Arabs would despise us more with a Jewish president. Is that a wrong statement given the current situation? I fear the extremist/terrorist world would take the opportunity of election of a Jewish president to prey on their fellow Arabs and use this to lure them into their extremist ways. As a result, I fear that the terrorism war would escalate greatly and many more people would die.
surfguy, I understand what you're saying, but many of your prognostications are based on people's racist reactions, and again does not take into account what the individual's actions can do. If I knew some of my clients were racist, should that effect my hiring? NFW, I'll hire the best, and they can got to h*ll. The second part of the point is that he will be viewed as biased from the start, so what, if his actions prove otherwise. If he will be a good President, I don't give a d*mn what Islamic extremists want. And as I mentioned before, he will recieve much more scrutiny than a none-Jewish president, and couldn't be seen as pro-Israel as Bush is. Regarding: ...I believe he would be viewed as biased on the situation and I think he probably is(how could he not be?)... All Jews do not think alike. Not all Jews are hung-up on God's gift of all of Israel to Jews, or of the status of east-Jerusalem. But what can you expect from a surfer dude. ..
Don't agree with either of the racist definitions pertaining to me. All I said is I don't think we should have a Jewish president because the timing isn't right because of the ME situation and war on terrorism. I'm not opposed at all to having a Jewish president when things settle down. I understand that you'll perceived my stance to have racism in it but I think you interpreted some statements incorrectly while accusing me of not being clear about my feelings. A simple misunderstanding.
Actually, I'm worried his red tie will further anger terrorists. I've heard they respond really violently to that color. Too bad the Rockets can't go back to their classic uniforms.
Lieberman??? Now way Jose! There's no way the Dems push him hard for Prez, anybody who believes that has got a screw loose. I'll tell you, one of the things that bugs me more than Lieberman's voice is his crusade against pop culture things like video games. Surfguy, I don't think you are a racist, but when you tried to proove your point about the problems with having a Jewish prez, you said somethings that the others have already pointed out to you. I see your point though and agree that it would be hard for this country and the rest of the world if we had a Jewish Prez because of terrorist and hard line Muslims. It's not something that we should consider though because we need to still do things in this country the right way and set the example. If the ME has a problem with that, well it's because they are pretty **** ed up over there.
I think the only way to really know how it will go down is to elect him. So, I'm voting for him. Thanks guys!
I really think an individual should be elected for his or her beliefs and not passed over because of the ramifications in the third world nations. The Arab nations need to sell oil and I doubt their corrupt regimes would pass up any chance to sell more and have the leaders line their own pockets. But if we care what the world thought of our overwhelming support for Israel, we wouldn't have had a group like Clinton's: Secretary of State: Madeline Albright (Jewish) Secretary of Defense: William Cohen (Jewish) Press Secretary: James Rubin (Jewish) Treasury Secretary: Robert Rubin (Jewish) Vice President's wife Tipper Gore (Jewish) National Security Adviser Sandy Berger (Jewish) Appointed to Federal Reserve: Alan Greenspan (Jewish) Middle East Envoy: Dennis Ross (Jewish) I believe over almost 25% of the House of Reps is Jewish as well when they constitute less than 5% of the population of the US. The rest of the world already thinks we are completely biased. That is why the UN Human Rights commission threw the US off of it, support for Israel. I don't think Lieberman would make a good president for other reasons. But Lieberman is not just Jewish, but is Ultra Orthodox, which is a much more conservative and very strict version that does not even permit Lieberman from working on Saturday's, and he follows that strictly.
and not passed over because of the ramifications in the third world nations What about ramifications within our own nation? I think that's where Surfguy was focusing his concerns - if having a Lieberman would increase the amount of terrorist attacks on American citizens, for example, or increasing the recruiting ability and money going into Al Queda. I had never thought about it that way -- to be honest, I'm not sure how it might affect my vote.
Surfman's concerns are valid about having plicies that will lead to increased terrorism against Americans., but don't have that much to do with Lieberman being Jewish per se. If you had the recently departed Paul Wellstone as the Demo presidential candidate you don't have that issue. Probably not with Russ Feingold either (I assume he's Jewish) who doesn't have the problems Lieberman has of being a near Sharon clone. BTW how about Feingold for President? He has charisma, and is liberal enough to energize the Democratic base.
He is an American, and I do not think that people are basing their decision on his faith. I was simply stating that "IF" he were President, or had been the Vice President that our trouble in other countries would have been greatly effected.
I think Surfman's concerns are valid not only for the rest of the world, but also for the Democratic Party. I think the Old South would carpool to the polls just to tip the balance. Racist or not, it does exist. Should that exclude him from candicacy? No, but it's one reason why he won't win it. I personally hate his misguided crusade over violent video games and pop culture. In all fairness, when JFK was running some critics thought that if he won, the Pope would control America. But in today's situation there's already a "Jewish Conspiracy" running rampant across the world and even in our heartland. Should we ignore it or placate it? All I can say is that the timing sucks in this situation...
