He still threw the organization under the bus... and has proceded to do the same in Philadelphia and NY. The above article mentions how he threw Oliver Perez under the bus (with a much more striking statement than what Berkman said about Valverde), so it wasn't out of his realm of ability. Also, if you can't see the difference with what Berkman said (I never liked Valverde's antics) vs. what he said about Perez above, and how he publicly scorned the owner's spending habits, there's no sense in arguing. Also, you have to realize that Wagner... while he was here... wasn't getting paid the big bucks yet, and was still under the watchful gaze of Bagwell/Biggio (as was all the young players). As soon as he started getting paid more, he talked more... culminating with him openly criticizing his owner who signed him to the big deal in the first place. Now that he's made his fair share... he speaks his mind early and often. New Yorkers have put up with a lot of this kind of behavior in the past... and frankly, they can't stand Billy Wagner. He is the highest profile Astro ever (and maybe the only one) to publicly single out the owner, during McLane's tenure. That's a pretty tough stain to remove. His mediocre playoff performances for us (when he actually got to pitch) didn't help either.
Wagner was getting paid the big bucks here. He was one of the top paid closers in baseball while he was here. Berkman has made more critical comments than Wagner did while he was here. He complained about Ensberg, Lance and Lidge being let go/traded. He spoke out on his displeasure of Chris Burke being traded as well. That's throwing the front office/owner under the bus. Like I said before, there is no reason to hate Billy Wagner while he was here as an Astro. Dumb old Lance Berkman has no idea what he's talking about. In the wake of Lance Berkman's critical comments about the new clubhouse chemistry, Alyson Footer went out and interviewed some of the clubhouse suck-ups. She could have found one or two in the media, but that's another story. Not surprisingly, the suck-ups think everything is going to be just fine. They also think Ed Wade wears nice ties and Uncle Drayton is very generous. "Lance is Lance, and I can see where he's coming from, but I don't think there's going to be bad chemistry," Brandon Backe said. "I don't think there's any question if there's going to be chemistry with the team next year. I think everything's going to be OK." My follow-up question would be: How do you know? I mean, you're making the same judgment Berkman is making. You're assuming an answer to a question that you can't begin to answer. Just because you chose to answer in a way that will make management happy doesn't mean it's any closer to the truth. No one has any idea what the chemistry or leadership will be in the overhauled clubhouse. In fact, no one knows how good the Astros are going to be. To assume that Berkman has no idea what he's talking about is silly. On the other hand, Berkman talks so much that he's going to be wrong on a few things. "Lance is going out on a limb," Backe said, hoping Drayton would be reading. "Maybe he's a little upset that his buddy Chris Burke was traded. But I don't know. He said what he said, and he certainly has a right to say what he wants." Let's see how Backe likes it next season when Berkman hits a three-run bomb in the fifth to bail his butt out of trouble. Chris Sampson added: "Ed Wade and Drayton McLane have been wheeling and dealing. It's going to be very exciting going into Spring Training and into '08." Memo to Chris: I love you, son, but you'd better not be talking about Drayton McLane wheeling and dealing. I'm telling you this for your own good. You'll end up on the wrong side of the fence at spring training. Remember that Drayton is barely involved. He's more of a removed CEO-type that trusts his baseball people to make the tough decisions. I know this because he told me so. Just to re-enforce that idea, one of his front-office suck-ups, Pam (Great Idea, Drayton) Gardner, took me to lunch to let me know Drayton was a great boss. (I'm not knocking this. You should see what I'm like around Carlton Thompson. I let him know at every turn that he's the world's most perfect boss. And he is.) Williams said he "strongly" disagrees with Berkman. "Chemistry is what you make of it," he said. Actually, good chemistry begins with a starting pitcher keeping the ball in the park. Catch my drift, Woody? http://blogs.chron.com/sportsjustice/archives/2007/12/dumb_old_lance.html
Oh, yeah. Notice how Berkman started speaking out in displeasure in the offseason of 07...when the Bagwell/Biggio era was offically over.....
Honestly, I'm a big Berkman fan but I didn't like the things he said this past summer. I thought he was wrong in a very similar way that Wagner was wrong. I really don't think there should be a double standard here. Wagner was wrong and Berkman was wrong. At least, Berkman recognized his mistake once he got over the impact of losing some of his buddies and admitted to his mistake through the media. We all know Berkman is a good guy. The only thing he was criticizing about Valverde was something that a lot of players around the league didn't like. It wasn't right but at least it was based on his belief in good sportsmanship. The same can be said about being upset over losing some close friends. He just didn't like losing the bonds and chemistry that he developed with some of those players over the years. In Wagner's case, he was criticizing players for not playing well and not being available to the media after playing poorly. Those are some of the worst insults you can throw at a teammate. Nobody likely said a thing to him after he blew his 7th save of the season last night. You just don't hear about that kind of stuff very often in baseball. I could never see Berkman throwing players under the bus for having a bad game or even a bad season. Shoot, he was actually upset about losing the underperforming Chris Burke and the struggling Brad Lidge.
Only for his last 2 years... and it was during that time where he got very vocal, thus belaboring my point (the more he got paid, the more issues he had with everybody). The level of Berkman's complaints COMBINED still don't equal the magnitude of Wagner openly criticizing an owner's SPENDING habits through the media. At least Berkman's issues can be deflected to the GM, and he was more upset over losing friends rather than criticizing how an owner spends his money/runs his team. The fact that Wagner said all of this AFTER he got paid the big bucks is also something you can't ignore. And, had Wagner stayed around, you think he would have been done talking/criticizing? The fact that he's gone to two separate teams and continued to spew malicious comments (while not accomplishing a helluva lot in terms of "leading" his teams to post-season glory), all on a level much higher than Berkman's, doesn't make the comparison all that much in favor for Wagner. So by using that statement, you're essentially going to ignore how he's carried himself since he's left the organization? Or you're going to ignore one of the main reasons he was traded in the first place? He was definitely one of the better Astro success stories of the 90's (first round draft pick, electric atmosphere when he came into the game), but you're beeing a wee bit blind-sided if you're ignoring his other issues. And hell, my BIGGEST beef with him had nothing to do with his comments/attitude... I just didn't think his stuff translated well to the post-season (where everybody is focused in on that 99mph fastball), and the Astros (and now the Mets) lost playoff games in part because of that.
Billy Wagner said one thing while he was here and I agree. We should of done more in 03 to make a playoff push. We stood pat. Of course you think Wagner said more than Berkman, becasue that's what you want to believe. Both should of kept it indoors, but they didn't. But to say Berkman's comments shouldn't be made of a big deal like Wagner is crazy. Your biggest beef with Wagner as that he didn't proudce while he was here...well, hell, Bags and Biggio didn't do anything in the playoffs while Wagner was here either. It's called a team effort. You can't pick and choose what you want. It's a team game.
One pretty bad thing... calling an owner "cheap", while he's paying you $12 million dollars to pitch one inning a game is a bit far-fetched. You mean besides signing Jeff Kent at the start of the season? And McLane certainly didn't look like he was doing a "tape job" when he lured Pettite and Clemens here that off-season. Sure, I feel calling an owner cheap is far worse than anything Berkman said. You don't feel that way... then again, I'm not the one that has "Wagner" on his screen name. I wonder what you want to believe? Berkman got plenty of flack from here, and the local media, for his comments. Some even were looking to trade the guy for it (which I thought was overboard). But Wagner's comments were unanimously looked at as pretty much a nail in the coffin for his time in Houston. And it seems now you're simply arguing that "well, Berkman did it... see, look at him!", rather than acknowledging that what Wagner said was overboard... and he's continued to act the same (if not worse) since he's left, indicating a pattern of behavior that doesn't make him the ideal "teammate". Again, you're pointing the finger at other players. Has or has not Wagner had an underwhelming playoff pitching career? He has. And, I'm pretty sure they didn't need me to single out Biggio/Bagwell... half the media/public took care of that already with every single national coverage this team got till the playoffs of 2004. And low and behold, with Lidge closing, Biggio/Bagwell got to exercise some of those demons in 04.
We stood pat on the trade deadline in 03 and it cost us. We missed the playoffs by ONE game. We needed one more pitcher that year. Heck, we're 13 games out this year and we didn't stand pat. I did say Wagner should of kept it in the clubhose, read my last post. My name screen name has nothing to do with Bill Wagner, fyi.
http://www.philly.com/inquirer/spor...otes__Brad_Lidge_says_he_s_able_to_pitch.html I feel silly to even bring up the All-Star Game, given that it's an exhibition players don't care about. But to certain posters in the Hangout who so gleefully posted that Lidge "couldn't handle big game pressure" as evidenced by the ASG, take a look at this. Just like last year, Lidge suffers an injury (in this case, brought on by an absurd 120 pitch workload for a closer)... and his performance slips a bit! What a concept -- he's a better pitcher when healthy than when he's not. Don't know about you guys, but that seems a lot more plausible and realistic of an explanation than the ever popular headcase conspiracy theory.
Ha! You said it. Who cares about Lidge. This is an Astros forum, not Philly. Move on kitty cat. Next topic!
Except that: #1: There were no good pitchers available at reasonable prices that year. #2: Wagner lost a game for the Astros in that final week. We just needed Wagner to not screw up and we'd have made the playoffs as well (or at least a one-game playoff).
Huh? lol. The Cat is probably one of the few "sane" people here when it comes to baseball analysis. It turns out Lidge is a better pitcher when healthy and that he's not a ruined headcase from Pujols. What's there to obsess about? Just the facts.
That's funny, because I'd say that claiming an exhibition game as a "big game" while insinuating that games in the middle of a division race are meaningless is pretty obsessed as well. http://bbs.clutchfans.net/showthread.php?p=3787457#post3787457
Fun fact of the day: since he signed his new contract (and this thread started), Lidge has a 5.03 ERA with a 1.63 WHIP. Valverde has a 3.31 ERA with a 0.89 WHIP in the same timeframe. And his WHIP on the season is now lower than Lidge's.
