You guys do realize the absolute SICK amount of talent Dierker had on those teams during his tenure: PITCHERS All-star calibur Shane Reynolds All-star/Cy-young calibur Mike Hampton All-star/Cy-young calibur Daryle Kile All-star/Cy-young calibur Billy Wagner All-star/Cy-young calibur Jose Lima All-star/Cy-young calibur Randy Johnson (best half season by an Astros starter ever) All-star/Cy-young calibur Roy Oswalt All-star calibur Wade Miller All-star calibur Scott Elarton All-star calibur Octavio Dotel HITTERS HOF/MVP calibur Jeff Bagwell HOF/MVP calibur Craig Biggio All-star/MVP calibur Moises Alou All-star calibur Derek Bell There's a good chance most quality managers would have gotten at least the same results with the above players... they all had recognized talent long before Dierker got his hands on them (and in some cases, Dierker irresponsibly overused some arms big-time... see Scott Elarton) Now, if you said you want a GM who spends more time/effort on developing the farm system instead of trading for mediocre veterans... I'm all for it.
Well I never really agreed with his dismissal in the first place; sure those teams choked in the playoffs, but a lot of factors played into that. I miss Hunsicker much more though.
Have you watched any of the minor league games he broadcasts for FSN? I don't know if it is just age or the brain surgery or what, but it is pretty clear that he is not the same guy he used to be. I hate to say it, but it seems pretty obvious (at least to me) if you watch the games. He used to have a sort of child-like excitement and wonder that just seems to be gone.
He has seemed rather depressed to me ever since his experience as a manager. I don't know that it was really a good experience for him.
I should say so...especially when you get booed in your own park for not pitching to Bonds because you want to win the game.
I don't miss how depleted he left our farm system. I know Purpura takes a lot of heat for that...but we weren't exactly stocked when Gerry left.
It appears that Brad Lidge is your latest favorite latch on contrarian view player. Just about every Astros fan concedes that Lidge lost his mental edge as a closer and needed a change of scenery but you persist with your lucky charms argument. I wonder if you really watch games because while you seem to remember a pitch to Pujols or a pitch to Braun you don't seem to remember anything else. Here's the data from last year and remarkably the innings pitched are almost identical which makes it a very good comparison. In games where Lidge pitched the 9th inning and on with a tie game or in a save situation. 33 appearances 33 innings 33 hits 24 runs 21 earned runs 8 hr allowed 21 walks 45 k's ---------------------------------- 3-3 Record, 5.72 ERA, 19 saves, 7 blown saves, 1.63 WHIP These are Lidge's stats basically as a middle reliever, all pitching situations other than 9th inning and on with a tie game or in a save situation. 33 appearances 34 innings 21 hits 5 runs 4 earned runs 1 hr allowed 9 walks 43 k's -------------------------------------- 2-0 Record, 1.05 ERA, 1 blown save, 7 holds, .88 WHIP His stats for 2007. 2007 Stats as Closer 3-3 Record, 5.72 ERA, 19 saves, 7 blown saves, 1.63 WHIP 2007 Stats as Middle Reliever 2-0 Record, 1.05 ERA, 1 blown save, 7 holds, .88 WHIP Those numbers indicate that he had become highly ineffective as a closer but was still as unhittable as it gets as a middle reliever. In fact his 2006 stats are very similar to his 2007 stats as a closer, they're horrible. Shall we attribute that to luck or should we believe our lying eyes and finally concede that the guy lost his edge while he was here? There is a big difference in pitching the 7th or 8th and closing. The pressure does matter and Lidge's numbers bear it out.
I was using two prominent examples, but I'll do more. I don't have time to right now -- it might take me a day or two, but I'll compile a post of every game in which Lidge allowed a run last season. I'll look through the video of exactly how it happened, study it and tell you what I found. (I already know, but I'll re-confirm.) I also love the little personal jab in there. If you dare disagree with the casual fan, then it must be that you have some bizarre conspiracy to take a "contrarian view." It can't ever be that the casual fan doesn't really understand baseball. No, can't be. You can't tell a damn thing from numbers. Baseball is a game played on the field, not on a stat sheet. Statistics are extremely valuable when used in the proper context, but to throw them out randomly without citing examples of their impact in a given game is irresponsible and just plain wrong. I don't care if Lidge's ERA was 12. If he made the right pitches, it's not mental. It's that simple. Furthermore, Lidge was moved back into the closer's role in mid-June, and then surprise! - on the DL with a serious knee injury that would require immediate surgery after the season. Required ice packs before and after games, hopped around on one leg, etc. Here's the quote from Lidge after the season: http://houston.astros.mlb.com/news/...t_id=2276070&vkey=news_hou&fext=.jsp&c_id=hou Lidge is one of the most standup guys in the business, so he won't make excuses like a lot of players would. But as someone who saw how much pain he was in on a daily basis, as well as the fact that he immediately had surgery the second the season ended... the math isn't difficult. So, what is it? Some bizarre psychological/mental conspiracy that he just can't handle the ninth inning, even though you have no on-field moments to back your claim? Or the fact that almost immediately upon moving back to closer, he suffered a serious knee injury and tried to throw basically off one leg the rest of the season? You can believe what you want, but I'll take the latter. (Of course, in addition to the knee, there was absurdly ****ty luck... but I'll detail that in a rather long post in a day or so, after I have time to find all the video.) P.S. Try and tell anyone with the slightest knowledge of baseball that 33 innings is a legitimate sample size. That's one of the funniest things I've read in a while.
By the way, if you're interested, email me privately and I can give you contact information on a couple of pitching coaches... I think you'd be extremely interested in what they had to say. To link Lidge's performance in 2006 with his performance in 2007 is one of the most amateur things I've ever seen, and reeks of someone who either followed the box scores or doesn't understand the game. In 2006, his mechanics were awful. Terrible. Anyone who understands baseball could see and has commented on that. In 2007, his mechanics were generally rock solid, and the results reflected that, until the knee injury. Couple of pitching coaches said he was throwing better than they've ever seen him throw. But unfortunately, baseball is a game, and sometimes injuries or just plain bad luck happens, and hitters hit a pitch. Of course, I'm sure these pitching coaches who have followed the game and worked in it their entire lives know absolutely nothing, and are just taking a contrarian viewpoint for the sake of argument. Go casual fans! Try watching a few games instead of reading the box scores. It's a much better perspective.
How can 33 innings be too small a sample size when it was his BODY of work as a closer in the year given. That's like saying you can't judge a pinch hitter's performance because he didn't get 600 at bats. But at least we have a good inkling of "proper use of stats". Namely when one uses stats that support a "The Cat" argument one is using stats properly and seeing the big picture. When one is using stats to counter a "The Cat" argument then one is "randomly and amateurishly" throwing them out there. Working with these helpful definitions in mind we can proceed.
Baseball is a game of numbers but you can't tell a damn thing from numbers? You know what dude? You are CRAZY. I've completely disproven your whole lucky charms argument with equal data sets under the most opposite of circumstances and you still won't accept it. I'm just going to put Brad Lidge right up there with your Chris Simms blind spot and move on. Thanks.
It's too small a sample size to draw a definitive conclusion on how it happened. From those numbers you can tell that Brad Lidge wasn't a particularly effective closer in his very limited time there in 2007. What we can't tell, however, is why. The "mental" argument is one, sure. But guess what? There are lots of pitchers that give up runs, and it's not always some psychological drama. Sometimes they're just not good enough. Sometimes they're just unlucky. Sometimes they're struggling with mechanics. Sometimes there are injuries. Statistics are useful when you're trying to figure out a player's overall worth. That's when I use them, and that's when it makes sense. But when you're trying to figure out one specific thing about a player -- especially something like his mental state -- you have to use them in context with other elements, such as observation. Look, numbers are important. Numbers show that Brad Lidge wasn't an effective closer in 2007, and I'll agree with that. That's an acceptable use of them. But what you can't tell is why. There are a number of plausible explanations, and to narrow it down to one -- especially when so many other signs point away from that -- is a very amateur explanation.
You haven't disproven a thing. Again, his ERA could be 12 as a closer and it doesn't make a bit of difference. The reason is that we're not debating whether the numbers are good or bad. What we're debating (see my above post, directed to Major) is the reason for those numbers, and whether it's correlated with his mental state or with tons of other plausible explanations. Numbers alone can't tell you that -- I'm sorry, they just can't. In the case of Lidge, you have direct testimony from both himself as well as pitching coaches and experts claiming his mechanics as a closer were rock solid and that he threw the ball exactly where he wanted. As well as ever, most said. In addition, you have the fact that a serious knee injury -- you know, kind of a big deal for a power pitcher -- occurred literally days after transitioning back to the closer's spot, and it got worse throughout the season. Your numbers show that Lidge wasn't as effective in the closer's role. Well, duh. That's not the argument. The debate is whether it was a "pressure" issue, as you put it, or whether it largely had to do with random luck, injuries and other factors. You haven't addressed those at all, and numbers alone simply can't. It takes observation, and you're not providing that part of the equation. But, I'll assume you don't want to argue on logic and substance -- you never have before -- and just chalk it up to you being CRAZY. I'm just going to put this up with your bizarre personal obsession with me and move on. Thanks.
I wish you could have heard what the Philly guys were saying about Bourn.....my favorite quote from them (in reference to Bourn) "as far as his plate discipline....he just doesn't get it." on Lidge. He's doing fine mowing down the NL east and a bunch of new players who are starting to see Lidge on a regular basis. I give Lidge 2 more years TOPS in Philly. As tempting as it is to go after that sinker/slider or his 97 mph fastball, managers will soon find out what most of the NL central found out a couple of years ago. Brad Lidge is a two trick pony, and only one of those tricks is a strike pitch. Just sit back and wait. Brad Lidge will either walk you by throwing 2 balls in the dirt and 2 way outside. or he'll serve you up a nice phat softball down the middle......
It's amazing to me that people still believe that mental BS. Landry has hit the issue squarely on the head: when Bradley can't throw his slider for strikes, everybody catches up to him.
Exactly. When he's healthy and his mechanics are sound, he can locate the slider and it makes him almost impossible to hit. When his mechanics are off and/or he's throwing hurt, he only has one pitch he can consistently throw in the zone, and hitters figure it out. It really is that simple. Unfortunately, the reality is that that story isn't sexy enough for certain columnists, and from there that mentality spreads to certain fans.
In addition, I should point out that that's exactly what Lidge said on numerous occasions, as well. During his strong three-month run last year, he fielded some variation of the question "what's different this year?" almost every day. Numerous reporters would try to lead him to talking about "confidence," but Lidge repeatedly said that there never was a point where his confidence was down. Instead, he said that by far the biggest difference between 2006 and 2007 was "command of the slider." http://houston.astros.mlb.com/news/...t_id=1981237&vkey=news_hou&fext=.jsp&c_id=hou Of course, I'm sure Brad Ausmus and Dan Wheeler don't know what they're talking about, either.
Hey Lidge just got his 20th save,as the Phillies beat the Cards. B. Lidge 1.0 IP 0 H 0 R 0 ER 2 BB 2 K 0 HR 0.95 Season ERA
