I already posted Lidge's numbers last year proving exactly what you're saying. They showed his strikeout ratio to be exactly the same regardless of when he pitched (certainly something that would prove his mechanics were off or his velocity were off due to injury) but his ERA as a middle reliever was about 1 while his ERA as a closer was over 5. It's pointless to argue with these two. The fact is he was horrible for two years after the Pujols homer. He had a change of scenery, a new coaching staff, an entirely different setting, and all of a sudden he's back to his 2005 self. They will say injuries and mechanics and the moon and the sun's position in the Universe but neither of them can with any semblance of confidence say that if he were still in Houston he would not be as horrible as he was in 2007 and 2006. It's just not knowable. The only thing we know is his performance altered back after a chance of scenery.
Outside of maybe, Mariano Rivera and Troy Percival, Lidge is probably the best big game closer of the last 10 years. How many other closers in the last decade has pitched in as many crucial playoff games as Lidge?
It certainly is, when you're holding to such a stupid argument. No, the "fact" is that Lidge was going downhill *before* the Pujols home run and was horrible for stretches of one and a half years after. Your opinion is that he was horrible immediately following and as a direct result of his homer, and that's been shot down and disproven so many times that I'm stunned and amazed to find people still holding to it with such vitriol. Well, except for over half of 2007, when he was with the same coaching staff, the same uniform, in the same setting, and was back to his 2004-2005 self. No freaking way a torn up knee can hurt a closer's performance! That's far too reasonable. It was the after-effects of a mythical home run hit months before. Yeah, that's it. Do you realize how stupid this sounds? When hyperbole is all you have left... How well did Lidge pitch in 2007 when his knee wasn't torn up? Come on, answer the question. I can with great confidence say he would have around a 2.00 ERA in an Astros uniform in 2008, based on project past, non-injured performance and seeing that he had full-well turned it around by then. No, his performance had altered back in 2007. You're the one ignoring it. You're also ignoring quotes from Lidge himself, dozens of teammates, and half a dozen coaches. But, you know better than all of them, right? Agreed.
Here's the obligatory bump for every time Lidge does something good. Last night he got his first ever WS save. I'll set aside my shoulda-couldas and simply say congrats.
Here are the stats: http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/players/6913/gamelog;_ylt=Auh_LA8Ci4eQ_jKRvHlbbzSFCLcF?year=2007 He did extremely well in the 9th inning through July 28th. In July, he had 6 straight saves, during which he gave up 0 runs, 4 hits, 3 walks, and 9 strikeouts in 6 innings. That was the only period where he was consistently the closer (besides day 1 of the season, when he blew a save).
Don't bother with stats. The people who still critcize Lidge will always say he "sucked for 2 years"... when in reality, it was really just most of 2006 (which was plagued by a lack of spring training thanks to WBC, poor mechanics that got worse, and even worse advice on how to fix those worsening mechanics). The fact that he has come back from all of that... to turn into what he's doing now... makes me think even higher of the guy. It also lessens the possibility of them continuing to show that damn Pujols HR over and over again, as if it was some catastrophic series-chaning moment that scarred Lidge for life. The Astros won the series, and Brad Lidge is now a potential future HOFer.
It was frustrating listening to the game on my way home from work last night and hearing all the ex-Astro names. Lidge, Wheeler, Miller, Bruntlet...I'm sure there were more...
If we're going to cherry pick stats, then it's my turn. Lidge from July 28 to the end of the season (Sept 29): - His ERA went from 1.90 to 3.36 - Had 5 blown saves just in that span - Gave up 6 home runs (with our park, it's a key justification to trading him) - 1.29 WHIP (Pretty sure 1.29 is considered pretty good, but his 5 BS shows that when he does have trouble, he explodes) In summary, his overall numbers suggest he'd have another good year in 2008, but his occasions of wildness and inconsistencies justified a trade. Personally at the time, I would've just traded him for starting pitching and then keep Qualls as the closer. The Valverde trade worked out, so I'm not complaining. This is what you call baggage. You're lying if you told me at the time you were certain he wouldn't return to that phase of finding his location/mechanics. The Astros just didn't want to go through that again along with the whole "closer by committee". Why take the chance of going through that when you can just turn the page and get another solid closer? Regardless of his struggles, he's always been known as a very classy individual with high character. Forget about rebounding from mechanics struggles. He was plagued with shoulder problems after Notre Dame when he was in the farm, and rebounded from that. Few more years of this dominance and he is in the HOFer. But like I said before, yes, we did win that Cardinals NLCS, but it affected our rotation for the WS. It was a critical loss. We should've had Oswalt for Game 1, 4, and 7 vs White Sox. We probably lose the WS anyway because our offense was garbage, but we probably wouldn't have gotten swept. You just never know...
Except the whole point of the discussion is that the period you mentioned is when he had the knee injury.
Yay lets blame everything on a knee injury, even though it's impossible for us to tell how much it affected him. You would think if the knee was hurting so bad, he wouldn't be playing. We weren't exactly in contention last year, so Lidge pitching on a severely banged up knee is wreckless and pointless. The fact that he did pitch tells me it couldn't have been as bad as you guys assume.
You got it. Why the Astros continued to run him out there -- hurting him, hurting his trade value, and not helping the team -- is beyond me. As for the severity of the knee injury, I think it speaks for itself. It required two surgeries (including one the day after the season ended) to be fixed. I can also speak from first-hand observation, that the guy all but hopped around on one leg before games on numerous occasions. It wasn't a pretty sight. If you know Brad, he's not the type of guy to ever say he can't. That's not in his vocabulary. But having watched him and talked to him, beyond what we could all see on the mound -- I can promise you, he wasn't close to right physically. I was extremely disappointed in the Astros' judgment for letting it continue.
At the time... being 2006... sure, I was a little concerned about his future. However, after working hard to get back to where he was in 2007 (and ultimately starting to look like he used to), I was encouraged. The fact that his numbers dropped and now have returned is easily explained by an injury that required surgery. You seem to be in denial about his performance pre-injury, or all of 2007 together. For somebody who is saying how we "don't know how Lidge's injury really affected him"... I can't believe you're standing by the pitching rotation argument for the World Series... something even more speculative (at least Lidge actually had surgery... and he's actually been a helluva lot better since the surgery). Again... Roy got hammered AT HOME, in a game with conditions much better than the ones he would have had to pitch in Chicago. Also, Clemens would have pitched in WORSE conditions in game 2. The only pitcher seemingly ready for that series was Pettite... who had just pitched game 5.
Exactly. It's funny that I'm labeled as the Lidge apologist, because in 2006, I was very rough on him and mentioned mental issues as a possible reason for his struggles. But it's what happened for most of last season that was the problem. He was as dominant as ever, really, for a very long stretch -- even in Houston, with "nervous" fans, the ghosts, and all that psychological bull****. He was even dominant in the closer's role. Then, suddenly around August, he struggled again. Sure, people could believe in some far-out headcase conspiracy, that magically didn't impact him his first several appearances as closer. Or, you could consider a knee injury that required two surgeries. Combine that with my own personal observation of him basically hopping around on one leg before and after games, and that seems a whole lot more plausible.
But at the same time, I'm guessing him completely missing the last few months wouldn't have helped his trade value either. And for the record, not one time did I say he was a headcase, mentally weak, etc. You would think people would figure out how strong he is mentally after coming back from shoulder injuries in the minors and then rebounding from his Houston struggles. My problem with him was ON the field. At some points from the end of 2005 to 2007, I didn't have faith in his location, and he continued to walk guys, give up homers, and get removed from the closers spot, leading to the inconvenient closer by committee. I'm glad we moved on and replaced him with Valverde. I didn't like who we got in return for him, but perhaps his injury problems and his supposed mental issues (maybe GMs bought that crap) lowered his stock.
Same here, you just tend to assume after having dealt with that BS for so long. My apologies as well, DPballer.
