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Libertarian Primer

Discussion in 'BBS Hangout: Debate & Discussion' started by Rashmon, Feb 26, 2012.

  1. Rashmon

    Rashmon Contributing Member

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    Interesting, but long read...

    I've always been fascinated with the real-world implications of libertarian beliefs taken to their "logical" conclusion. I have only found three installments...more to come. I'll be curious to hear what our local libertarians and Paulites think.

    Journey into a Libertarian Future: Part I –The Vision

    By Andrew Dittmer, who recently finished his PhD in mathematics at Harvard and is currently continuing work on his thesis topic. He also taught mathematics at a local elementary school. Andrew enjoys explaining the recent history of the financial sector to a popular audience.

    Simulposted at The Distributist Review

    Recently journalist Philip Pilkington has interviewed authors with unconventional perspectives on economic issues, including Satyajit Das and David Graeber. I thought it would be fun to interview someone too – but the man I interviewed uses a pseudonym. This is a six-part series.

    ANDREW: Some people say that you represent a fringe view, and so interviewing you is a waste of time.

    CODE NAME CAIN: If people obsessed with inside-the-Beltway conventional wisdom underestimate libertarians, so much the better.

    ANDREW: Can you give any evidence that your ideas are taken seriously?

    CNC: Well, people used to think that the financial crisis was caused by antisocial behavior in the finance sector. In September 2007, Tom DiLorenzo pointed out on the Lew Rockwell website that the crisis was actually the result of the government forcing banks to make risky loans to low-income borrowers. Although initially ignored, DiLorenzo’s thesis is now widely accepted among careful observers.

    ANDREW: Is that your only convincing example?

    CNC: Hardly. Did you notice how over the last year or so, everyone started to talk about how the threat of new taxes and regulations was making producers uncertain? And when producers are uncertain, the economy fails to improve? Well, the fact that worries about taxes and regulations cause uncertainty and so damage the economy is a key insight of Austrian economics that we have proclaimed for decades.

    ANDREW: Wait, I thought people said that Obama was causing the uncertainty.

    CNC: Obama is causing the uncertainty now. Before Obama, George W. Bush was causing the uncertainty. In general, democratic government causes uncertainty. Hans-Hermann Hoppe made all of this clear in his 2001 book “Democracy: The God That Failed.”

    ANDREW: Are there things you have learned from the work of Dr. Hoppe that you had not found in the writings of other libertarians?

    CNC: “Ludwig von Mises and Murray Rothbard were great men, but they lived in a time when supporters of freedom needed to be careful about what they said. As a result, libertarians often fail to describe their ideal future society in clear detail. But, as the Cato Institute’s Patri Friedman has recognized, Hans-Hermann Hoppe is an exception to this reticence. He is willing to speak the truth, no matter how much it makes “politically correct” people squirm, and he is so logical and eloquent that I routinely quote from his classic book on the failure of democracy. Please color such quotes in red – I would never try to pass off my own ideas as if they were on his level.

    ANDREW: Tell us now about the libertarian society you are working to make possible.

    CNC: It will be a free society – no government, no coercion. People will have their rights respected. Everyone will be free to do whatever they want as long as it doesn’t interfere with anyone else’s rights… why are you looking at me like that?

    ANDREW: I was kind of hoping for less speeches and more details.

    CNC: What do you mean?

    ANDREW: In our society, the government is the only organization allowed to kill people. In the libertarian society, which organizations will kill people?

    CNC: There will be no government that is allowed to use force against people and kill them.

    ANDREW: Some people will be very rich, right?

    CNC: Of course. Some people will always be stronger and more brilliant than others.

    ANDREW: Will the wealthy people still be worried about people stealing from them?

    CNC: Obviously – all property… is necessarily valuable; hence, every property owner becomes a possible target of other men’s aggressive desires. [255]

    ANDREW: So who will protect property owners?

    CNC: Insurance companies in a competitive marketplace.

    ANDREW: So in your society, insurance companies will be sort of like governments. Can we call them security GLOs (Government-Like Organizations)?

    CNC: Sure, as long as we stress that the insurance companies, as security GLOs, will be very different from the statist, coercive governments we have today.

    ANDREW: Will security GLOs be different from governments because they will be small family firms?

    CNC: No. One reason that insurance companies will be well-suited for the role of security GLOs is that they are “big” and in command of the resources… necessary to accomplish the task of dealing with the dangers… of the real world. Indeed, insurers operate on a national or even international scale, and they own substantial property holdings dispersed over wide territories… [281]

    ANDREW: Will security GLOs be different from governments because they don’t use physical force against criminals?

    CNC: You gotta be kidding, right? … in cooperation with one another, insurers [will] want to expel known criminals not just from their immediate neighborhoods, but from civilization altogether, into the wilderness or open frontier of the Amazon jungle, the Sahara, or the polar regions. [262]

    ANDREW: So the security GLOs will be allowed to kill people, if they are known criminals?

    CNC: The security GLOs will not kill people, they will just expel them to the Sahara or polar regions. What happens then is up to the criminals.

    ANDREW: Can we say that the security GLOs will effectively kill them?

    CNC: I really don’t like that choice of wording. You make it sound like the security GLOs will be committing aggression against the criminals. That’s backwards – the criminal commits aggression, and security GLOs will just defend people. They won’t violate anyone’s rights.

    ANDREW: Maybe you would prefer that we say: the security GLOs will effectively kill people in a rights-respecting manner.

    CNC: Yeah, that’s better.

    ANDREW: Will everybody be able to get insurance from the security GLOs?

    CNC: Of course – in a market economy, shortages are impossible. Anyone can get anything by paying the market price.

    ANDREW: What if the market price of insurance for some people is more money than they can pay?

    CNC: Don’t worry, competition among insurers for paying clients will bring about a tendency toward a continuous fall in the price of protection… [281-282].

    ANDREW: In the future everyone will pay less for security than they currently pay in taxes?

    CNC: Well, certain government-induced distortions would be eliminated. Government taxes more in low crime and high property value areas than in high crime and low property value areas. [259] Security GLOs would do the exact opposite.

    ANDREW: So in rough neighborhoods, most people might not be able to afford security insurance.

    CNC: Possibly.

    ANDREW: Suppose there are people who aren’t covered by any security GLO – would it effectively be legal to kill them?

    CNC: They would definitely be rendered economically isolated, weak, and vulnerable outcast [287].

    ANDREW: Then people are effectively forced to join a security GLO?

    CNC: Maybe you haven’t realized it yet, but this will be a free society. The relationship between the insurer and the insured is consensual. Both are free to cooperate and not to cooperate. [281] No one will force people to buy protection, and no one will force insurers to offer protection at a price they think is too low.

    ANDREW: What are some other ways that you think this would be a good system?

    CNC: Well, every property … can be shaped and transformed by its owner so as to increase its safety and reduce the likelihood of aggression. I may acquire a gun or safe-deposit box, for instance, or I may be able to shoot down an attacking plane from my backyard or own a laser gun that can kill an aggressor thousands of miles away. [256] In a free society, security GLOs would encourage the ownership of weapons among their insured by means of selective price cuts [264] because the better the private protection of their clients, the lower the insurer’s protection and indemnification costs will be [285].

    ANDREW: Let’s see if I understand. In poor neighborhoods, most people will not be insured, and it will be legal to kill them. The people that are insured will be encouraged by the security GLO to carry weapons that are as technologically advanced as possible. It sounds to me like this would be bad for the poor neighborhoods.

    CNC: On the contrary – in “bad” neighborhoods the interests of the insurer and insured would coincide. Insurers would not want to suppress the expulsionist inclinations among the insured toward known criminals. They would rationalize such tendencies by offering selective price cuts (contingent on specific clean-up operations). [262]

    ANDREW: Suppose that security GLOs, or private groups that they sponsor, are looking for criminals. When the enforcers catch the criminals, will they always transport them to an uninhabited area, or will they sometimes put them in prison?

    CNC: Prisons like the ones we have? With basketball courts and televisions for the criminals? How would that be fair?

    ANDREW: Maybe other kinds of prisons?

    CNC: Look, it’s not about putting people in prisons. It’s about people getting what they deserve. And in the libertarian society of the future, people will get what they deserve. Security GLOs can be counted upon to apprehend the offender, and bring him to justice, because in so doing the insurer can reduce his costs and force the criminal… to pay for the damages and cost of indemnification. [282]

    ANDREW: So they’ll have to do forced labor for the security GLO?

    CNC: How can you possibly think this could be worse than our current system? Where instead of compensating the victims of crimes it did not prevent, the government forces victims to pay again as taxpayers for the cost of the apprehension, imprisonment, rehabilitation and/or entertainment of their aggressors [259]?

    ANDREW: Still, as a libertarian, aren’t you against coercion?

    CNC: Coercion? Obviously you don’t understand what you’re talking about. Coercion is only when someone interferes with rights someone else actually holds. Criminals can forfeit their rights through their own choices. When that happens, requiring them to make restitution for their actions doesn’t violate their rights.

    ANDREW: Will there be any other people in the free society who will be slaves?

    CNC: Slaves?! Don’t you know that the first condition of a libertarian society is that everyone owns themselves?

    ANDREW: Sorry, I meant to say: effectively slaves in a rights-respecting manner.

    CNC: Oh. Hmmm. Let me think about that.

    ANDREW: For example, suppose someone signs a business contract and then, later, can’t fulfill the terms of the contract. What would happen?

    CNC: In a libertarian society, sanctity of contract is absolutely fundamental.

    ANDREW: Let me be a little more specific. Suppose some guy can’t pay his debts. Would he be allowed to declare bankruptcy and move on, or would he become, in a rights-respecting manner, the effective slave of whoever had loaned him the money?

    CNC: That would depend upon the debt contract that the lender and borrower had together voluntarily signed. If they had chosen to include a bankruptcy proviso, then the borrower could declare bankruptcy.

    ANDREW: Suppose that in the libertarian society, lenders would rather encourage borrowers to focus on repayment – and so they decide not to give borrowers an easy way out. Suppose that no lenders offer loans with a bankruptcy proviso. Would that be okay?

    CNC: Economic theory tells us that loans without a bankruptcy proviso will be made at lower interest rates than loans allowing borrowers to go bankrupt. So if no loans contain a bankruptcy proviso, it will just mean that borrowers prefer low-interest no-bankruptcy loans.

    ANDREW: I see some problems here.

    CNC: Look, it sounds from your question like you think that the lenders should be coerced into allowing borrowers to be irresponsible and go bankrupt! That would effectively make them loan their hard-earned money in ways that they don’t want. How is that any different than forcing them to work at hard labor?

    ANDREW: Obviously it would be better to have defaulting borrowers be effectively enslaved in a way that fully respects their natural rights.

    CNC: Obviously. Now that we’ve cleared that up, can you turn off the tape recorder? I want to get started on my steak.

    Now that Code Name Cain has indicated the promise of a libertarian society, in the next part of the interview he will give a step-by-step plan for how we can make this society a reality.
     
  2. Dairy Ashford

    Dairy Ashford Member

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    I consider myself a statist but I think any extrapolation of a particular ideology could be misleading, in that the government has never really adopted the full platform of any individual party (at the highest levels of government, ego beats ideology every time).

    If they ever learn to compromise, organize or communicate well enough to get elected, libertarians could ultimately provide some kind of a corrective impact on total federal spending and regulation: just keep them the hell away from the education system.
     
  3. Commodore

    Commodore Contributing Member

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    most libertarians would not argue for the elimination of the state

    what that guy is describing is more like anarcho-capitalism

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anarcho-capitalism

    I like this video:

    <iframe width="420" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/muHg86Mys7I" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>
     
  4. False

    False Member

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    Yeah, that's definitely an-cap. I had a nice conversation in a coffee shop with a friend's younger brother that basically mapped that. The true believers like to assert that their beliefs are based in the the unchallengeable logic of pure reason. So, if you just lend a sympathetic ear and act like you aren't really passing judgment, they will say all manner of crazy things.

    All an-caps are libertarian, but not all libertarians are an-caps, so it's considerably harder to extrapolate any libertarian beliefs, because they are so all over the place. All libertarians tend toward being somewhat utopian, so it can still be a somewhat enjoyable endearing journey into hypotheticals. It's probably harder to get it out of them though, because they tend to be more well-adjusted and are able to realize that sounding crazy isn't going to win any followers.
     
  5. glynch

    glynch Contributing Member

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    Very interesting. Of course what happens when the criminals try to reenter from the Sahara or polar regions.

    This ties in with my idea that libertarians have a hopelessly naive faith that corporations will treat them better than governments. I can't understand how they can possibly think that individuals in corporations will somehow act more just or be more accountable to the public than government employees. I guess they can always posit that without a state all corportions will be small mom and pop organizations, but this is getting close to just taking on faith that a libertarian society will be the best possible.

    No wonder so many libertarians came to the faith through novels. The above comes off like some sort of scifi novel.
     
  6. Qball

    Qball Contributing Member

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    Whiskey Tango Foxtrot...:confused:
     
  7. Rashmon

    Rashmon Contributing Member

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    Some of my favorite head scratchers. You would want to believe this is pure satire, but...

    We have a lot of posters who claim libertarian ideals who always spout off about "statism" but are never able to offer their own alternatives.

    Do they agree with some of these premises and consequences offered?
     
  8. StupidMoniker

    StupidMoniker I lost a bet

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    Most libertarians recognize a role for government in protecting the lives and property of the citizenry. The idea is not that all government should be abolished, only that it should serve the limited purpose of making sure that the interactions which occur are voluntary.
     
  9. BigBenito

    BigBenito Member

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    I did not realize that Mercenaries and Insurance companies were the primary cogs in anyone's version of utopia.
     
  10. False

    False Member

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    huh?

    Sure, government should serve a limited purpose. It should make sure that interactions which occur are voluntary. All that sounds great. In fact, I'm sure that pretty much every single person on this forum would agree to those concepts, because they do sounds pretty swell. It could be revolutionary, or it could even be the status quo.

    However, the devil is in the details, so what do you mean by ensuring that all interactions which occur are voluntary? What do you mean by voluntary? How does that look any different than our present course? What are the policy actions that you think ensure that all interactions are voluntary, and why those and not others? Is a re-distributive tax where the ultimate goal is to ensure that all people are on equal economic footing at all times and therefore can conduct all interactions in a voluntarily manner something you'd be for? I doubt it, but still it all seems a bit vague, so maybe you could explain a little more.
     
  11. BigBenito

    BigBenito Member

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    I look forward to a society that allows everyone to own laser guns that can kill "aggressors" thousands of miles away.
     
  12. jo mama

    jo mama Contributing Member

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    didnt read, but i find it humorous that someone would post an interview w/ someone who refuses to reveal their identity and then ask libertarians to defend what this anonymous person said. for all we know this whole "interview" is fake. the parts i skimmed over came across like an onion piece.

    "this one random, anonymous person represents what libertarians think...libertarians, defend yourselves!"
     
  13. Rashmon

    Rashmon Contributing Member

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    Here's Part Two...

    Journey into a Libertarian Future: Part II – The Strategy

    By Andrew Dittmer, who recently finished his PhD in mathematics at Harvard and is currently continuing work on his thesis topic. He also taught mathematics at a local elementary school. Andrew enjoys explaining the recent history of the financial sector to a popular audience.

    Simulposted at The Distributist Review

    This is the second installment of a six-part interview. For the previous part, see here. Red indicates exact quotes from Hans-Hermann Hoppe’s 2001 book “Democracy: The God That Failed.”

    ANDREW: Do other libertarians agree with your idea of a libertarian society?

    CODE NAME CAIN: Well, we do have our differences. For example, the Cato Institute is severely compromised by numerous left-leaning libertarians such as David Boaz. The Cato tag-alongs and certain other prominent libertarians imagine that an extremely small government would be better than no government at all. They are, of course, wrong. They have not yet recognized that every government is destructive of what they want to preserve [235-236].

    ANDREW: It sounds like you and Dr. Hoppe and Murray Rothbard are strongly critical of those other libertarians. But when I looked through the Cato web site, I found that while they sometimes express disagreements, they are surprisingly respectful of Rothbard and Hoppe. Why do you think this is?

    CNC: Three reasons. First, pro-government libertarians have probably realized how difficult it is to refute Rothbard and Hoppe, and so prefer instead to learn from their ideas. Second, many agree with Tibor Machan, who says that libertarians should not let their small differences over this issue “distrac[t] from the far more significant task of making the case for libertarianism in the face of innumerable bona fide statist challenges.” But third, you have to reckon with the Human Shield Effect.

    ANDREW: The what?

    CNC: Libertarian Bryan Caplan says that “hard-core libertarians’ comparative advantage is to play watchdog for moderate libertarians – and make them seem reasonable by comparison.” You see, on many areas other libertarians secretly agree with us, but they are afraid to acknowledge it openly. Instead, they prefer to let us take the heat for our principled positions, and to wait for us to turn previously “radical” ideas into common sense.

    ANDREW: So you can count on at least some support from other libertarians. But in order to make your revolution happen, you will have to convince other people as well. Are you going to try to get a majority of U.S. voters to support the future libertarian society?

    CNC: It won’t work – persuade a majority of the public to vote for the abolition of democracy and an end to all taxes and legislation? [...] is this not sheer fantasy, given that the masses are always dull and indolent, and even more so given that democracy… promotes moral and intellectual degeneration? How in the world can anyone expect that a majority of an increasingly degenerate people accustomed to the “right” to vote should ever voluntarily renounce [it]? [288].

    ANDREW: If it’s not a good idea to try to persuade a majority of Americans to surrender the right to vote, what is the right approach?

    CNC: It has to start with a small elite. As Étienne La Boétie said, these are “the men who, possessed of clear minds and farsighted spirit, are not satisfied, like the brutish mass, to see only what is at their feet, but rather look about them….” These people will start to secede from the United States.

    ANDREW: Meaning?

    CNC: It means one regard the central government as illegitimate, and… treat it and its agents as an outlaw agency and “foreign” occupying forces [91].

    ANDREW: You don’t pay your taxes?

    CNC: One tries to keep as much of one’s property and surrender as little tax money as possible. One considers all federal law, legislation and regulation null and void and ignores it whenever possible [91]. One needs to be ready in case the government makes a move, and invest in such forms and at such locations which withdraw, remove, hide, or conceal one’s wealth as far as possible from the eyes and arms of government [92].

    ANDREW: Is this why you have a code name?

    CNC: It took you a while, but you figured it out in the end.

    ANDREW: How will a few people seceding lead to an anti-state revolution?

    CNC: It won’t. … it is essential to complement one’s defensive measures with an offensive strategy: to invest in an ideological campaign of delegitimizing the idea and institution of democratic government among the public [92].

    ANDREW: Did you say earlier that trying to convince the public would be difficult?

    CNC: With the secession strategy, you don’t need a majority. That’s good, because [t]he mass of people … always and everywhere consists of “brutes,” “dullards,” and “fools,” easily deluded and sunk into habitual submission [92]. Still, there can be no revolution without some form of mass participation. … the elite cannot reach its own goal of restoring private property rights and law and order unless it succeeds in communicating its ideas to the public, openly if possible and secretly if necessary… [93].

    ANDREW: Even if you do it secretly, convincing the masses that they are inferior sounds tricky.

    CNC: That’s true, but you don’t have to convince Joe the Plumber that he is a brute. You can convince him instead that he is a hardworking, productive individual, and that other people are brutes who are making it so Joe has no control over his life.

    ANDREW: I see.

    CNC: Still, you’re right. Convincing the masses of the superiority of the natural elite is not the most important part of our communications strategy. The central task of those wanting to turn the tide… is the “delegitimation” of the idea of democracy… [103] It is not enough to focus on specific policies or personalities… Every critic and criticism deserving of support must proceed to explain each and every particular government failing as an underlying flaw in the very idea of government itself (and of democratic government in particular). [94]

    ANDREW: Now that I think of it, I have heard people saying things like that.

    CNC: There is still a long way to go. There remain far too many people who make unnecessary compromises with the idea of democracy. In fact, there must never be even the slightest wavering in one’s commitment to uncompromising ideological radicalism… Not only would anything less be counterproductive, but more importantly, only radical – indeed, radically simple – ideas can possibly stir the emotions of the dull and indolent masses. And nothing is more effective in persuading the masses to cease cooperating with government than the constant and relentless exposure, desanctification, and ridicule of government and its representatives [94].

    NDREW: A lot of Americans think that democracy has helped the country to be prosperous.

    CNC: What better evidence of the limited mental horizons of the so-called “ordinary person”? Hans-Hermann Hoppe has debunked this idea entirely, but too many people still think that the collapse of the Soviet Union had something to do with the absence of democracy! [A]s for the economic quality of democracy, it must be stressed relentlessly that it is not democracy but private property, production, and voluntary exchange that are the ultimate sources of human civilization and prosperity. [105]

    ANDREW: So let’s see if I understand. At this point, there will be a small elite dedicated to revolution. Meanwhile, many ordinary people will no longer believe that democracy is a good system. Will you try to do this everywhere, or just in a few key places?

    CNC: It doesn’t matter if people in any one city think that what we’re doing is wrong and dangerous. As long as the people who oppose us continue to wring their hands together and to talk only to people who already agree with them, they will not obstruct our efforts to find or create secessonist majorities… at hundreds of locations all over the country [290].

    ANDREW: Aren’t you a little worried about how the government might respond to all of these people choosing not to obey the law?

    CNC: You mean, considering how the U.S. government has become entangled in hundreds of foreign conflicts and risen to the rank of the world’s dominant imperialist power[?] [How] nearly every president [since 1900] has also been responsible for the murder, killing, or starvation of countless innocent foreigners all over the world [244]? Of course I’m worried. The U.S. president in particular is the world’s single most threatening and armed danger, capable of ruining everyone who opposes him and destroying the entire globe. [244]

    ANDREW: But then, what will you do?

    CNC: We will work to create a U.S. punctuated by a large and increasing number of territorially disconnected free cities – a multitude of Hong Kongs, Singapores, Monacos, and Liechtensteins strewn over the entire continent [291]. This approach offers two advantages. First, a “piecemeal strategy” will make secession seem less threatening. Second, the more the secession process continues, the more the government’s strength will be eroded.

    ANDREW: But there could still be conflicts between the new libertarian mini-states and the existing democracies.

    CNC: If there is a conflict, it will be because a democracy has not respected the rights of the free mini-states. But you are forgetting that the mini-states will not be defenseless in such a conflict.

    ANDREW: What will they do?

    CNC: Since they will be no-tax free-trade haven, large numbers of investors and huge amounts of capital would begin to flow immediately. [132] It will therefore be possible to pay large multinational insurance companies to develop military forces capable of defending the free mini-states against government aggression. Keep in mind that, unlike the military forces of the democracy, these military units will be provided by private firms, and so will be much more efficient. If there were to be a conflict, these insurers would be prepared to target the aggressor (the state) for retaliation. That is, insurers would be ready to counterattack and kill, whether with long-range precision weapons or assassination commandos, state agents from the top of the government hierarchy [from the] president…. on downward… They would thereby encourage internal resistance against the aggressor government, promote its delegitimization, and possibly incite the liberation and transformation of the state territory into a free country. [264-265]

    ANDREW: Will it stop there? Or will you eventually get rid of the small city-states as well?

    CNC: At the correct moment, all remaining governments will be dissolved. Protection against violence will be provided exclusively by insurance firms. As I see it, public property should be distributed among taxpayers, with shares based on how much each individual or firm, up to now, has been forced to pay in taxes. Since public employees and welfare recipients are obviously recipients and not victim of taxes (theft), they will receive nothing.

    ANDREW: Would you like to say anything else before I end this part of the interview?

    CNC: Let me quote the conclusion of “Democracy – The God That Failed.” If and only if we succeed in this endeavor, if we then proceed to return all public property into appropriate private hands and adopt a new “constitution” which declares all taxation and legislation henceforth unlawful, and if we finally allow insurance agencies to do what they are destined to do, can we be truly proud again and will America be justified in claiming to provide an example to the rest of the world. [292]

    In part 3 of this interview, Code Name Cain will show that he is unafraid to explain how a libertarian society will work in detail.
     
  14. False

    False Member

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    This one individual doesn't represent what all libertarians think. Libertarians are all over the place ideologically. It's good for a laugh and as a discussion piece. I am curious to hear what individual libertarians think, critiques of existing policy are interesting, but they are also easy. Ultimately it gets down to policy, so, if you would identify yourself as a libertarian, would you agree with Stupid_Moniker that libertarians as a whole believe that:
    If so, I'm interested in hearing your thoughts on the following questions that I posed to him. What is meant by ensuring that all interactions which occur are voluntary? What is meant by voluntary? How does that look any different than our present course? What are the policy actions that you think ensure that all interactions are voluntary, and why those and not others?
     
  15. Rashmon

    Rashmon Contributing Member

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    So when libertarian principles are applied to the real world, you realize they are as absurd as an onion piece? Mission accomplished.
     
  16. Haymitch

    Haymitch Custom Title
    Supporting Member

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    If this is a fake, the guy did his research. I think it is real, but, you know, who cares? Who is this guy? I don't want to seem mean, as this could be informative, but I have to agree with some of the above posters that this is not worth much.

    I'm a libertarian - an "an cap*" - but this is his idea of how things would hopefully play out. These views of future libertarian societies differ frequently, and sometimes in not insignificant ways.

    But some of the snippets are either edited so as to misrepresent CNC or he just has moments of sheer stupidity. I think it is the former.

    There are many other, better "primers" of libertarianism. For a very short look, see one written by Houston's own Stephan Kinsella, who runs Libertarian Papers: http://www.lewrockwell.com/kinsella/kinsella15.html

    * To me, libertarian = anarcho-capitalist/anarcho-libertarian.

    Here's a good paragraph from the article I link to:

     
    #16 Haymitch, Feb 27, 2012
    Last edited: Feb 27, 2012
  17. StupidMoniker

    StupidMoniker I lost a bet

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    Ensuring would mean force to happen. All interactions would be every instance of one person engaging in a transaction or activity with another person. Voluntary would mean not against a person's will.
    Because there are many involuntary interactions at present. There is taxation and government expenditure on such things as education. No one at McDonalds asks me if I would like an additional 10% of my total to be taken from me and given to the state to pay a public school administrator, they just do it. Certainly some steps are taken now that would remain appropriate, such as the punishment of criminals (though not all things now considered crimes would continue to be so classified).
    The court would void involuntary transactions where possible and punish those who forced them into effect. The reason this policy would be used is because it is necessary and sufficient to accomplish the stated goal.
    No, that would be the opposite. Wealth inequality is not a bar to voluntary interaction. Forced redistribution of wealth is involuntary interaction.
     
  18. glynch

    glynch Contributing Member

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    Leaving aside civil liberties, privacy issues and foreign affairs, in other words economics there is little or no differnece between libertarians and conservatives in practice. There is a reason 90% of so called "libertarians" vote for or support GOP, much like Ron and Rand Paul do.
     
  19. False

    False Member

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    Despite her assertion, that the state is unjustified is a normative or ethical position, this is not borne out from her own arguments. She starts with the ethical position that aggression is never justified. It sounds reasonable, but it's not really. Aggression can be justified. Ex. self defense. She might say that self-defense is not ever aggression; in fact, I think she has to for her house of cards to stand. This is off, almost all would agree that self-defense employs aggression against another or that self-defense can at times be aggression even if it is not necessarily at all times. To say it doesn't, means that she is must be using a different definition of aggression than is the common understanding. If she is using a different definition of aggression, she should define it. Surprise! She doesn't in the article. Maybe her definition can be gleaned from other areas of the article. She does say that taxes are aggression and that crime is aggression. Maybe she means that aggression is limited to taxes and crime. This seems preposterous, but without any guidance, it could be the case. If it is, then taxes and crime should be used as stand-ins for aggression. Her underlying ethical position would I guess be an ethical position, but it wouldn't be a good one or most people would ever accept. It would give little to no guidance about what is right and wrong beyond the areas of taxation and crime even presuming we could coherently define the words taxation and crime. For the sake of argument let us presume that she would define aggression in such a way to create a carve-out for self-defense. How would such a system handle aggression for the good of all, that question can't be answered without her defining the term, so let's presume the ethical position she is using somehow satisfactorily deals with that issue as well.

    Using her underlying ethical assumption, she moves on to make the assertion that the state is unjustified because it necessarily employs aggression. This presumes that the state not only necessarily employs aggression, but that once again aggression can never be justified. This leap of faith she makes using various presumptions that don't seem to borne out in reality or in people's ethical intuition is no longer a normative or ethical position, it is a simple belief, and, like any other that can be incorrect or correct depending on the underlying assumptions. In this case, most libertarians and most people living in the U.S. would disagree with her underlying ethical position that aggression is never justified, and even if they did not, would not be able to make that leap of faith that she wants the reader to make that the state necessarily employs aggression.

    Basically her position as stated reads that aggression is always wrong and unjustifiable, taxes are aggression, states necessarily use taxes, therefore the state is always wrong and unjustifiable. Absent anything else, that is a rhetorical tautology and it adds next to nothing to any discussion except to say that the author is either being willfully disingenuous or is woefully mistaken by a limited understanding of the the world and/or the meaning of ethics.
     
  20. glynch

    glynch Contributing Member

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    Nevertheless you post, and as you are want to do, claim the person who claimed to be a libertarian isn't really a libertarian. I guess you are a sometimes Paulite.

    Ron's libertarianism seems to be sort of malleable, and influenced by the largely conservative nature of his district. Hence he is against abortion, goes to a Christian Church, when libertarians are usually against such traditional value systems as Christianity.

    Of course for me a big contradiction is Ron Paul taking nearly two million dollars in donations from the paypal founder who recently cooperated in an anti-civil liberty project of big government directed against Jualian Assange and wikileaks for letting folks know what their government is doing.
     
    #20 glynch, Feb 27, 2012
    Last edited: Feb 27, 2012

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