You guys are talking about two different things. I think everyone on this board would agree that female genital mutilation is absolutely wrong in every single instance. It doesnt matter what culture or background that surrounds the event. It's always wrong. That said, what you're talking about is how we approach the matter and that's a matter of diplomacy and public relations. The easy part is identifying what is objectionable and the harder part as you point out is how you frame it and how you choose to approach the issue. I mean its easy for all of us to criticize the fact that a country like Saudi Arabia many times punishes the woman who gets raped but the sad reality of the world is that rather than having the power to instantly change the culture of Saudi Arabia we have to operate in the world of diplomacy.
Cultural relativism is a dying anachronism. In a hundred years or less there will be a singular world wide moral code decided by a plurality of all the people as information becomes universal. That is not to say it will be enforceable though. Money and power will still make their own rules.
I don't know. Correct me if I'm wrong, but that really sounded like Rocket River was saying that genital mutilation is not wrong on an absolute scale and that we don't have the right to say our morals are superior to those of the people who practice such an act.
His posting style confuses me a lot so your guess is as good as mine. On the off chance that he in fact is saying that we aren't in a position to judge those who practice something like genital mutilation then I must say that I think he's completely wrong. There are some things so horrible that they're just flat out wrong and even looking at something through the lens of culture won't make it look right.
I think it is wrong. I think alot of things are wrong. I can argue my points. I can try to convince you they are wrong but in the end . .. Should my opinion supercede everyone elses? Should the AMERICAN opinion be the definative opinion on matters of human rights? Rocket River
It's not the American opinion. There is objectively such a thing as right or wrong. I thought this was a great post by justtxyank: I don't know about deserving to be shot, BUT: A culture that encourages or tacitly tolerates things like these, I don't want it to spread into my country. I think we should both actively try to educate people in these countries to stop such inhumane practices (which is what Rocket River would dispute), but we should also consider the consequences of immigration - people will bring these practices and the thinking behind it into your own country, to some extent. So, what geeimsobored said is correct: But when we look at immigration of people from these cultural circles (part of the Arab/Muslim world), we have to ensure that they do not bring these barbaric practices and the thinking behind it into our countries. That is not done via diplomacy, but via testing their willingness to integrate and to drop certain practices and to adopt the values of their newly chosen home country. This was not done e.g. in Europe in the past decades, we just let people in and did not require anything from them in terms of effort to integrate themselves and to buy into the values. This led to parallel societies within our own countries where people just continued practices like locking up their women, making them wear mobile jails, marrying them to cousins, denying them education, and in extreme cases even genital mutilation and "honor killings". This is where the Western world and certain forms of Islamic culture clash. And while some liberals completely misunderstand "tolerance" as allowing everyone to do whatever they want to do, supposedly because it is their freedom of religion or whatever, the truth is that we have to defend freedom and human rights against barbaric practices and intolerance - both in our own countries and, as geeimsobored said, by means of diplomacy, even in their home countries - because there are such things as right and wrong in terms of human rights which supercede having to respect so-called cultural practices.
I do think there is a universal right or wrong, but I can't help but think we're in a glass house throwing rocks. As a quick example of things I think other cultures rightfully abhor about America-> -The American diet. Pork and beef heavy, which are taboo in many Eastern religions. This was done for a practical reason->beef and pork are very inefficient and take huge amounts of grain for little amounts of nutrition. "Yeah, but genital modification is sicker"...but guess what? Millions may be starving because of this. -American sexuality is basically a playground. I don't really have a strong opinion about this, but I could honestly see why a lot of people would dislike that. -The triviality of American society. Makes me think of Brave New World. Would certainly infuriate me if I were a Third World citizen seeing so many capable and privileged individuals doing nothing to effect change in a flawed world. We're not exactly sterling examples. I guess both sides will just have to learn from one another.
Look at our prison system. We are near the top in alot crime statistics and the lady from the Article is from Somalia A place we'd be willing to wage war to stop this practice but seem quite ok with letting them starve. In fact, Americans seem to think anyone that doesn't 'work as hard as us' . . .well starving is no big deal. We are ok with 15 yr olds having sex and having abortions all without parental consent or knowledge. In fact some of us are willing facilitate both there are a bunch of morally ambigous stances in the US Rocket River
I'm surprised that no one has brought up circumcision or abortion as religious/cultural/moral practices that could be compared or contrasted to this case. I can see the arguement to rights to the practices as well as arguments that they are human rights violations. What we do about it depends on the depth of our individual convictions, whether they based on culture, religion, or other moral standard. Although respect for convictions of others and the consequence of our actions are big factors in determining our actions, in the end, they don't and shouldn't deter our strongest convictions.
I don't mean to derail the thread, but I thought those taboos stemmed from the fact that improperly prepared meats can be dangerous to eat.
The OP is so money. Here is something that speaks in the same vein. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/sam-harris/the-moral-landscape-q-a-w_b_694305.html?ir=Yahoo Totally puts the "every culture/religion/creed/way of life is as valid/moral as the other" argument to shame.
That said, parasites and cleanliness are widely accepted rationales too. Regardless, the foods are taboo. And knowing what we know now, regardless of sanitary advances, this is how it should be given the effort required to produce these meats. So think about that next time you're criticizing another nation, someone else probably has some beef with you (ahahaha-ha---meh)
Here is another good example of something completely messed up in Afghanistan that is excused by "cultural tradition". Rocket River, would you say that our soldiers in Afghanistan should just look the other way, because "it's their culture"? Boys in Afghanistan Sold Into Prostitution, Sexual Slavery Wealthy former warlords in Baghlan, a northern province of Afghanistan, recruit adolescent boys for sex and entertainment, while local authorities remain powerless in stopping the practice. A ‘bacha bereesh’ is a boy without a beard, and in several circles a beardless boy is most desired by rich, powerful male patrons. Grown men become involved in ‘bacha bazi’— which literally translates into ‘boy-play’. This is a time-honored tradition, condemned by human rights activists and Muslim clerics, but it is seeing a revival in the north province of Afghanistan. It is by no means restricted to the north of Afghanistan only, but has virtually faded in the south, where the Taliban’s strict moral code act as a deterrent. The bacha bereesh, between the ages of 14 to 18 (though 14 seems to be the preferred age), are dressed in special women’s clothing, with bells tied to their feet, and paraded out to dance at parties and weddings. In general, the practice of men dancing at parties is relatively common in Afghanistan, where the sexes are strictly segregated and women unallowed to partake in such activity. However, in Baghlan, the former warlords and mujahideen commanders are resurrecting bacha bazi, and holding dance competitions between the boys. Allah Daad, once a mujahedin commander in the northern Afghan province of Kunduz, explains how the boys are enticed into the arrangement: “First we select boys in the village and later on we try to trick them into coming with us,” he said. “Some of them stay with us for money; they get a monthly allowance, and in return we can have them any time we want. They don’t stay with us all the time - they can do their own jobs and then just come to parties with us.” Large halls provide the venues for the weekly parties where the boys’ owners, invite their friends to watch them dancing. Several different types of dances are popular, Daad says, and if the boy refuses to dance or performs badly, his master beats him with a long stick. "We have to do that,” explains Daad. “We spend money on these boys, so they have to dance.” Later into the night, once the dancing is over, the boys are frequently shared with close friends, for sexual favors. And by the end of the evening it is not at all uncommon for the boy to have a new owner, as the parties often provide the opportunity for buying and selling. Both prestige as well as poverty are the main motivators for the revival of bacha bazi. A beautiful boy who is also the best dancer becomes a status symbol for his master. A man going by the name of Nasro Bay explains how the public ostentation of bacha bazi is a sign of prestige: “I am not really rich, but I am just as good as the wealthy. I want as many bacha bereesh as possible, so that when I go to parties I am no worse than anybody else.” He insists that the dancing boy tradition is a good one. “It’s a good thing,” he said. “We have our own culture. In foreign countries, the women dance. We have our own dances which don’t exist anywhere else in the world.” The men are said to lavish money and gifts on their boys. Many claim to love them, and there are cases of boys who are not so dissatisfied with their lifestyle, demeaning as it may seem. "I was only 14-years-old when a former Uzbek commander forced me to have sex with him," says Shir Mohammad. "Later, I quit my family and became his secretary. I have been with him for 10 years, I am now grown up, but he still loves me and I sleep with him." But at 24, he is getting far too old to remain a dancing boy. "I am grown up now and do not have the beauty of former years. So, I proposed to marry my lord's daughter and he has agreed to it." Ahmad Jawad, 17, has been with a wealthy landowner for the past two years. "I am used to it. I love my lord. I love to dance and act like a woman and play with my owner," he says. When asked what he would do when he got older, Ahmad says he will be an owner and will have many of his own boys. Some of the men say they are not interested in women. “We know it is immoral and unIslamic, but how can we quit?” asks 35 year-old Chaman Gul. “We do not like women, we just want boys.” But poverty tells a less sentimental story, and remains a huge motivating factor in the boy’s lives. It’s often desperation which drives them into the lifestyle. “I was dancing last night,” one exhausted-looking 14 year-old boy said, when his owner forced him to speak. “I have been doing this for the past year. I have no choice - I’m poor. My father is dead, and this is the only source of income for me and my family. I try to dance well, especially at huge parties. The men throw money at me, and then I gather it up. Sometimes they take me to the market and buy me nice clothes.” Mohammad Zaher Zafari, head of the northern branch of the Afghan Independent Human Rights Commission, bemoans the government’s inability to take action. “Unfortunately I have to say that this type of dancing, sexual abuse and even the sale of boys has been going on for years,” he says. “It is a despicable culture. The boys involved are usually poor, underage or orphans, and they are forced into it by their economic circumstances. Indeed, the government has failed to do much about the practice of bacha bazi, and police force do little to encourage public confidence. Local officials do admit the practice is prevalent but seem at a loss as to how to combat it. “Yes, bacha baazi is practiced a great deal, especially in the Khost-o-Fering and Andarab districts,” says Hafizullah Khaliqyar, head of the prosecutor’s office for Baghlan province. “Boys are forced to dance, they are sexually abused, and they are even bought and sold. Fights take place over these bacha bereesh. It’s increasing day by day, and it’s catastrophic.” Khaliqyar says there is little that prosecutors could do. “The police and district heads won’t cooperate with us,” he complains. “They don’t send us their files, so we can’t take action.” He says the paramilitary commanders involved are powerful- so powerful that no one, not even the police, is able to rise against them. But Baghlan chief prosecutor Hafizullah Khaliqyar has more hope, and says those found guilty of abuse would be jailed for at least 15 years. "We have 25 cases of such immoral acts. They are being processed and we are trying our utmost to tackle the problem," he says. http://www.digitaljournal.com/artic...anistan_Sold_Into_Prostitution_Sexual_Slavery
"But when we look at immigration of people from these cultural circles (part of the Arab/Muslim world), we have to ensure that they do not bring these barbaric practices and the thinking behind it into our countries." The possibility of introducing barbaric practices such as stoning into our society is so remote as to be literally a non-issue. Then again, we're really not that far removed from Old Sparky (yeah, I know, "it's not the same thing" is the response I'm already prepared for), so it's not as if the United States has been immune to barbaric practices, whether from the government or citizen groups (San Francisco Vigilance Movement, anyone?). As much as I hate to refute Glenn Beck (sic), it's important that in matters of politics, we keep things as secular as possible. And I say this as a practicing, Mass-every-week Catholic. I feel strongly that there are universally accepted and non-accepted behaviors, and I am completely confident that they will not be challenged anytime soon by barbarism in this country- as long as we maintain separation of church and state- it is so critically important we do this that it just cannot be emphasized enough (no, I don't have a problem with In God We Trust on paper currency- just that those have to be kept to a minimum). If anything, despite the handful of crazies out there, I feel that there has been at least a gradual, decade-over-decade increase in tolerance and acceptance. It's just that, when the economy's bad or when the U.S. is threatened (9/11), the xenophobes come out in droves. God, Yahweh, and Allah have mercy on them! They operate out of ignorance and know not what they do. Hopefully, we will continue to uphold the First Amendment while keeping our country safe through actual, documented threats. And after all this controversy regarding a cultural center in Manhattan, the question I pose that no one seems to have a common answer for is: If 2 blocks is too close, exactly how far back does it have to be, since we all agree that they have the right to build a cultural center? How many blocks? Can't be more than 4, because they would then have to destroy the one that's already 4 blocks from Ground Zero. So, would 4 do it? Would they be OK with that? Watch them hem and haw on that one. Sorry, I digressed probably about 5-6 times- just some things I had to get out. Salam. :grin:
You mean pedophiles don't reside in America? Good thing we have such superior morals that nothing like that happens here. Rocket River
Not as institutionalized as there, apparently. And it is illegal in the Western world. Your argument "just because bad stuff happens in our own country, we have no right to judge what happens in other cultures" is silly.
I've read some of Sam Harris's stuff before and I think he's wrong. Here's a nice rebuttal by Sean Carroll (Caltech physicist) that addresses some of the major problems with his claims that there is a scientific answer to moral questions.
