giddyup: I'm having a hard time understanding your critical stance of a person who ACTUALLY WANTS TO ATTEND CHURCH!!! It's not like you have to even convert him or anything. I've known plenty of ministers who ENCOURAGE people to find a church home that suits their personal values systems. Some like churches where women have equal say. Some want churches who have an active singles group. Some want older or younger congregations. Some want a church with more traditional service while others want a more contemporary service. I could see it if RM95 was saying, "Well, scratch another RELIGION off my list" and bypassed Christianaity because of the acts of one person. But, he's actively seeking to find the "Word of God" and you are GIVING HIM A HARD TIME??? Sounds more like you just want to disagree with RM95.
I read the first page and discovered I had two more in the thread to go and got discouraged. So, I don't know what the conversation is about anymore so I won't respond to most things I'd want to respond to. I just wanted to post to help RM95 on his search. I get the feeling you won't like the Presbyterian Church in America (PCA) because they are too conservative for you. You may like the Presbyterian Church of the United States of America (PCUSA) however. They are more liberal, not literalists, have women as pastors, embrace homosexuality, etc. Other things as well, I'm sure, though I haven't actually attended so I don't know what. Not saying all these are good, but it generally seems to fit your general outlook better. Other folks, I recommend you avoid PCUSA and take a look at PCA.
There is nothing in the Bible to indicate that this sort of liberal drifting among houses of worship was present in the first century congregation, the congregation closest to Christ... Has religion changed? God doesn't change. Why would the way we worship him?
Yeah, but probably the least liberal of denominations is the Lutheran Church Missouri Synod and they were born out of Catholocism, which was very different from the original orthodox Christian Church. I mean, in the traditional orthodoxy, women had to wear veils and sit in a detached room of the church. Men weren't allowed to shave their beards and there were a number of other highly strict methods of practice that are not in use today. If the message is the same, despite the change in orthodoxy, the message is the same. Just like we don't speak Greek any more or interpret the Bible from the original Hebrew (Old Testament), other things have changed as well.
Where I used liberal, I was not referrnig to liberal vs. conservative---I was speaking about flitting from this manner of worship to that one and back again. It wasn't done in the congregation Jesus established. You speak of traditional orthodoxy, but you're speaking of traditions added hundreds of years after Christ and the original apostles passed off the scene. Those are things and ways they never worshiped in.
gettinbranded: Another question... How can you relate the church today to the first century? The Bible didn't even exist at that time. Some of the books of the original Bible weren't even penned by then. In fact, the Bilbe as we know it, didn't exist until the middle part of the 1000's. I'm guess I'm just confused as to what you exactly mean by following the traditional orthodoxy in this context. I'm not sure we could, even if we wanted to, go by those methods. Plus, the Apostles didn't really have "churches." Most of them taught outside to loosely knit groups. The orthodoxy of the time was a valid part of their lives and they practiced it fervently (right down to the kind of clothing they wore). I guess I'm just confused by what you mean by "original" in this context.
Jeff, The last book of the Bible written were 1st, 2nd, and 3rd John---all completed about 98 C.E.---or within the time frame I called the first century. I quoted a scripture above that showed that a central group of men in Jerusalem made a decision that was carried to the various congregations. Pauls books are addressed largely to congregations, and Jesus himself addressed various congregations in the beginning parts of The Revelation. There was a definate organization structure, not loose groups.
Jeff, I don't think your dating of the Bible is accurate. The Bible as we know it was formalized in the fourth century or so and written much earlier. But, that's just a sidebar. What I want to know from gettinbranded is what the early history of the church has to do with the comment from Isabel that inspired it. Her comment was: The 'job' she refers to here is, I assume, 'salvation.' To what extent do you think 'liberal drifting' puts one's salvation in jeopardy?
I always have a hard time with my perception of RM95's flippancy and a kind of casual disrespect that he holds for things I deem important. I admit that I am a bit guilty of riding him hard to the end on this one, but I don't think my points are in any way invalid. I kept thinking about letting it go, but it kept raising my ire. Others have indicatd the same kind of things better than I have. RM95, I am glad that you are searching for a church and I hope that you find one in which you and Your Girl's spiritual life will thrive. I've never said likewise. I just wanted to provoke your thought about your search.
Ok, fair enough, but what exactly does that have to do with modern worship? Are you suggesting that any change in the traditional orthodoxy make churches somehow less Christian than others? What you wear, how you look, women's place in services, the translation used for reading scripture, the existence of hymns, even the common liturgy used for centuries, in some instances, wouldn't fit the traditions set down in the original church. How far back should it go? Should everyone have to learn Hebrew? Should women not be allowed in the sanctuary? Should music not be allowed in services? If you are simply talking scripture, then I'd assume the only way to legitimately keep it correct would be to operate from the original translations of Hebrew and Greek. Don't get me wrong. I respect your knowledge on the subject. I'm just trying to determine how, practically speaking, you propose a church should be based on those traditions.
It's possible you provoke people in a direction other than you had intended. If I was unfamiliar with the Christian church and had just watched Rocketman get slammed for trying to find a place in that church, I would possibly begin to form an unfavorable (and inaccurate) view of Christianity.
But can you KNOW that RM95 is being flippant? I mean, do you REALLY KNOW THAT FOR A FACT? Frankly, the fact that he is looking and trying would seem to indicate the EXACT opposite. That it rasied your ire, IMO, says more about the judgements you place on him than the real truth about what he believes. How can being thoughtful and educated on your choice of church EVER be a bad thing?
Sigh.. you're exagerating. All I did was challenge the way he was thinking about his search. I never discouraged him from searching. I only encouraged him to sharpen the way in which he proceeded. Nobody "slammed" him. I was trying to "sharpen" him.
Jeff, I've read his posts and he and I have posted back-and-forth for a couple of years now. Look at the name of his thread. He could have gone with "What are some good ways to find a home church?" Instead we get "Let's Scratch Another Denomination off my List." I don't doubt his intentions but his manner is kind of casual, no? That's his style. Others have noted the same thing. I just stuck too long with the theme. What judgements have I placed on him? Is he serving them somewhere? Truly I like RM95. He is a funny poster. But he and I come from very different places and experiences. Read what I wrote to Mrs.JB...
One of the hardest parts of becoming a Christian is to submit yourself unto God. Everyone of us has the strong desire to direct our own lives, and no one willingly gives up that right. You may want to sing but God wants you to preach the word. You may want to preach but God wants you under a certain preacher. The problem I see with RM95 is he's unwilling to give himself to what God wants first. Now I'm not saying it's wrong for him to feel this way; like I said before, we all do. But I do think his quest might end up unfruitful. I mean to just join a church he can agree with, to me, accomplishs nothing. Who knows, God might want RM95 at a Catholic church so He can use him to reform the people there, in that particular church. Many times I felt God had me attend people's hope, a black church, to show them that white and black people arn't that different from one another.
1. Follow the Bible and it's established arrangement. 2. Examine and reject any practices that have a basis in pagan worship or non-christian thinking. At it's inception Christianity had a long running battle with pagan religions. The apostles fought the incursion during all their lifetime. After their death, some facets of pagan religion and even some greek philosophy and thinking begin to settle in. Many of those are now considered traditional. The scriptures indicate that this mixing of false with true is unacceptable. (Ephesians 5:10,11 and 2 Cor 6:14-18).
I heard a lecture from Ravi Zacharias once in which he was arguing that there was a fusion of Jewish, Greek, and Roman (respectively) philosophy in "the way, the truth, and the light." But the real reason I posted was because you didn't answer my last question (which I personally think is a better vein or argument than the one Jeff is pursuing. ). Perhaps I'm on your ignore list?
Does this mean you don't celebrate Easter or Christmas then? A Church is nothing more than a venue for mass worship. Therefore, the most important thing to consider when picking a Church (other than maybe location) is whether you want to associate with that church and its members. I would venture to say that God hasn't personally told anyone on this board which church he prefers, so for anyone to criticize RM95's approach (or his humorous sharing of those churches that have turned him off) is ridiculous. Lighten up, people - if I believed in God, I'd bet that he would be laughing at all the holier-than-thou attitudes that have hijacked this thread.
