There wasn't much to get. I'm in the library and I'm very bored. Getting back to the topic knd of, here is a nice quote from the beggining of Ulysses, --History, Stephen said, is a nightmare from which I am trying to awake. From the playfield the boys raised a shout. A whirring whistle: goal. What if that nightmare gave you a back kick? -- The ways of the Creator are not our ways, Mr. Deasy said. All history moves towards one great goal, the manifestation of God. Stephen jerked his thumb towards the window, saying: --That is God. I think this is what you mean in your critique of religion Friendly, and to that extent I would have to agree with your critique of religion. I do not view religion as some hegelian movement towards a goal (notice the brilliant pun on that word). It is here and it around us. To that, I need to go home and tommorow I'll bring up this thing written by Thomas Aquinas that I might consider to be the most important thing ever written outside of the Bible... Can we at least that we have a starting point in this, and that from there we can start the discussion that must follow in regards to love...?
you bring it up and I'll tell you where I come down on it. I don't have a problem identifying where I come down on issues. I just don't like do it ad nauseam. I much prefer to discuss things on an issue by issue basis. Abortion, for example. My belief: if it is a sin, it's the same degree of moral wrong as judging the person who gets one. If it is a sin, and I'm not saying it is, it is no better or worse than others. personally, I go for each woman deciding on her own, because God made us free moral agents to make our own decisions and live with them. If a woman gets an abortion, it's between her and God, not me and her and God. and if she gets an abortion, it's forgiven like every other sin. at least that is the Christian way. I think the hatred directed towards women who go to get abortions is wrong, is anathema to Jesus and what he taught. I don't think in terms of SIN, but I use that terminology because it has meaning in your theology. I don't think abortion is a SIN. I think it's a life experience that is unfortunate in one sense, fortunate in another. so, that's where I come down on abortion. how about you?
FF -- I totally agree with you...the problems of abortion aren't solved by hate, but by love. by supporting young pregnant women...by providing job training or financial aid to them...by taking care of their real needs. and by loving them. having said that...there is a huge difference between judgment and discernment. saying something is wrong...when it is wrong...is not necessarily judgmental. it can be...but it doesn't have to be. i believe abortion to be nothing short of murder...i can not keep quiet on that. ultimately i am every bit as sinful as anyone else on this planet...but that doesn't stop me from arguing against the current US policy on abortions like crazy. keep in mind too...if i'm right...if there is a life there that's being murdered...then it's not just between the mother and God. we, as a society, don't respect your free will to murder anyone. in fact, we punish it.
CAN OF WORMS OPENED BY NEW POSTER, 3:58 PM See, you make stereotypes, and thats where it hurts your argument. You claim that Christians judge people who get abortions. In my 22 years of not liking abortions, I don't think I've ever judged someone who gets an abortion. Thats not the issue. The issue is the child's right to life, which is more of a right embedded in the essence of a human than some contrived right to kill an unborn as a woman's choice.... The reasons for doing so are stupid. Purely material in essence. I'd want to have a baby based on the sole reason that that child gets to see the color blue, or hear the melody of a nightingale. Life is to beautiful to be bogged down by material constraints. Yes the child might have it hard, but you know what, they're alive. And that is wonderful. Your attitude is mediocre. Sin happens, so we should just let it happen. Yes, sin does happen, but we should try our best that it does not. If we can try and stop it , we should. And there are different degrees of sin. Something that wipes out ones whole exhistence is probably a lot more wrong than a sin that happens and one can see that it has happened and then atone for that sin (not to say one cannot atone for having an abortion). Life is not lived an action my friend. It is a life for a reason, and it is long, and screw ups happen, but one should always look to love better, more in tune with the nature that we have been made to live up to.
when our bombs kill people we are likewise culpable and when we execute people, we are likewise culpable are you equally certain that killing in war is murder and that executing prisons is murder?
just in case you're directing those questions at me... i'm anti-death penalty...the chance of killing even one innocent life wrongfully skews the whole thing for me. as for war...we've seen instances where war saves lives..where it liberates lives...so i'm not willing to say that there, necessarily. but all of that is a classic bait-and-switch argument...we're talking abortions, now...one issue at a time, like you said.
I thought christian redemption is only possible through suffering. It is through suffering that you come to know god. After darkness comes the light... Why did god "let" Jesus suffer? Buddha taught a thing or two about suffering too. It is numeral uno on the list of the Four Noble Truths: 1. Suffering exists 2. Suffering arises from attachment to desires 3. Suffering ceases when attachment to desire ceases 4. Freedom from suffering is possible by practicing the Eightfold Path Quote taken from here "This idea that there is nothing but hardship in this world—even pleasures end in hardship—is one of the significant points of Buddhism. Someone might say that this idea of recognizing this life as hardship cannot be anything but pessimism. But that is not right. The idea is this: in this present life there are both pleasures and hardships. It is shallow to try to regard it as entirely of pleasure; what one regards as pleasure will cause suffering when it ceases to exist. In other words we may call it a kind of hardship which appears in the guise of pleasure. Therefore this life must be regarded as consisting entirely of hardship. Yet one must not lament over it. If one is ignorant of the fact that pleasures can cause hardships, one will be disappointed when that fact presents itself. The Buddha teaches that one should regard hardship as hardship, accepting it as a fact and opposing it. Hence his emphasis on perseverance, fortitude, and forbearance, the latter being one of the Six Perfections. In short, there are both pleasures and hardships in life, but one must not be discouraged when hardship comes, or lose oneself in rapture of joy when pleasure comes. Both pleasure and hardship must be taken alike with caution, and one must attack them with all one’s might. For this reason bravery and diligence (virya) were included among the Six Perfections."
I am coming very late to this discussion, so if what I'm saying has been covered, please forgive, but... 1) Deities have almost always been given remarkably human characteristics and motivations , even while being deemed inscrutable. Within social norms, individuals or movements have often attempted to co-opt aspects of those character traits to support thier arguments. This strikes me as little more than that. 2) The idea of God 'allowing' tragedies is as old as the hills, and even harder to dig through. It really can be reduced to an argument on the nature of God, and that is an excercise in supposition, as even those who believe in God admit that he/she/it/they is/are unknowable. But to make an argument that tragedy is God's response to the Lord's prayer being taken out of schools, etc. reduces him to little more than a petty overlord, and even though I am not a believer, I reject a supposition that a being capable of overseeing our entire existence for millenia, without feeling the need to proclaim him/her/itself to us by wrote would give us that kind of small minded after school lesson. Really childish reasoning, IMO.
Quote: Originally posted by ROCKSS I believe that true Baptisim is found in Acts 2:38 I believe that the trinity is a man made entity and is not found in the Bible {the word trinity} I believe you must be born again to enter into Heaven I believe the Godhead is one, not three thanks that would make you NOT a Catholic, therefore a protestant, probably not Episcopal or Anglican DEFINITELY not Episcopal! I'm SOOOOO devisive...hehehe
maybe i'm missing something...do you think having an opinion makes one judgmental?? what of his post did you find judgmental???
his judgments of me and of others who don't agree with him didn't you read what he said? he concluded things I never said.
do you think this is a win/lose deal??? counter-attacks? lions? i mean, this is ultimately nothing more than a discussion board. no one is keeping score. except, of course, Trader Jorge. and I'm keeping track of all of the fantastic comments that seem to spill from YoYao's keyboard...but other than that..there's no scorekeeping. at least i don't think there is.
Mr. Meowgi -- thanks for the Buddhist perspective. In learning about eastern philosophy the hardest thing for me to wrap my mind around has been the concept of non-duality. The idea that good/bad, right/wrong, pleasure/hardship are all human-created concepts to describe what simply is. Intellectually I grasp it, but on a pure reactionary level I still have a strong habit of labeling everything in dualistic terms. Interestingly, the best text I've found to help me better grasp many Buddhist concepts is Eckhart Tolle's "The Power of Now." Have you heard of or read it? If you haven't read it, I highly recommend it -- he's an amazing spiritual teacher. Ironically, he's not a Buddhist, but he makes perfect sense of many of the teachings.
i'm not excited...i'm sitting at my desk, listening to dave matthews...and taking time away from a pleading i've been working on most of the day..and munching on Starburst. also enjoying the fantastic lightning storm outside my window. most of my post you quoted from was a joke...having said that, it seems that you wish to "win" this discussion...that there are counter-attacks (which means you must have attacked first, i guess) and the very mention of another faith perspective on this board would send us all back shuddering to our Christian caves...maybe after you've been here a little longer you'll see that's really not the way it works here.
There's a book I read 20 years ago that I found helpful. Buddha and Jesus: Conversations by Author: Carrin Dunne Binding: Paperback, 112 pages Publisher: Templegate Publishers Published Date: 01/01/1975 List Price: USD $10.95 great reading if you want to imagine a conversation between Jesus and Buddha
