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Lets hope this gets yall thinking

Discussion in 'BBS Hangout: Debate & Discussion' started by SaVeThEpIgS88, Aug 18, 2003.

  1. Friendly Fan

    Friendly Fan PinetreeFM60 Exposed

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    Grizzled, it's not that I can't engage in such long winded and pointless discussions. I choose not to spend my time volleying Biblical points when your view and mine are radically different of God, of the Bible, and of history.

    I'm sure there will be others who will have such discussions with you, however. I know you hate to be told "I'm not interested," but I'm not interested.
     
  2. Grizzled

    Grizzled Member

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    Buddy, don’t put words in my mouth. That kind of thing can make me very annoyed. You said above that not believing my faith was part of your faith. If that’s the case then so be it, but don’t try to pass yourself off as having a more reasoned position, especially if you are refusing to enter into a discussion on the subject. That’s just being a hypocrite, your own version of a religious hypocrite. Either enter into the discussion in an honest and respectful manner, or dust off your own sandals and work your next sinner, according to your own self-proclaimed faith. :rolleyes:
     
  3. Grizzled

    Grizzled Member

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    Friendly, you clearly don't know a thing about me, and your claim that you do is ridiculous and offensive. And if, as you claim, you’re not interested in entering such discussion, what are you doing in this thread? Are you instead trying to preach to us? I think you’re stepping to the fore as the religious hypocrite in this thread.
     
  4. Friendly Fan

    Friendly Fan PinetreeFM60 Exposed

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    Jesus loves me, this I know
    cuz the Bible tells me so


    you have your interpretation of Jesus and I have mine. Mine thinks yours is upside down.


    let's agree to disagree as brothers in Christ


    Jesus is my favorite guy of all time, but that doesn't mean I subscribe to religion or Christianity, both of which I consider to be abominations of what he taught.
     
    #64 Friendly Fan, Aug 19, 2003
    Last edited: Aug 19, 2003
  5. Major

    Major Member

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    Jesus loves me, this I know
    cuz the Bible tells me so


    Religious intolerance works both ways. You can't accuse someone of being preachy, and then post something mocking their faith and expect them not to be offended.
     
  6. Friendly Fan

    Friendly Fan PinetreeFM60 Exposed

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    I'm not mocking his faith. I'm stating mine.


    One doesn't have to accept Christianity to accept Jesus as worthy of following.


    Just because most Christians think that they own Jesus doesn't mean they do. He is there for all to interpret. The view that most of Christendom holds today isn't the one of 200 years ago, and in 200 years more, it won't look like it does today.
     
    #66 Friendly Fan, Aug 19, 2003
    Last edited: Aug 19, 2003
  7. wouldabeen23

    wouldabeen23 Member

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    Interestingly enough, the Lutheran church is now part of the Episcopal church and part of the "Anglican Community"--As the Episcopal church opposed the war so did the Lutheran...
     
  8. Grizzled

    Grizzled Member

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    You don’t know what my faith is, and you won’t state yours. Instead, you hide behind ambiguous terms and statements while mocking other posters. Either stand up and state your case, or get lost. You’re not adding anything to this thread by smugly prancing around making smartass remarks and saying nothing.
     
  9. twhy77

    twhy77 Member

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    Well I've been away from the religious discussion for a few days, half on purpose, and half because I don't really think I was being prudential enough in my talks with protestants.

    Anyway, Friendly, you are obviously good at stereotyping a religion and I feel sorry for you for that. Its also a little hard to say that you follow Jesus Christ and that you are not Christian.

    I've missed most of the conversation up to this point so someone will have to fill me in on the details, but it looks as if friendly is a religious relativist, destined for some mediocre middle, which is perfectly fine, but, he shouldn't expect everyone to take such a stance. And I don't think he does, but he doesn't really debate the issues at hand, any of the theological principles of Christianity. Maybe this is because he has no real argument, or maybe it is because he just doesn't feel like defending and stating his views, but until then I think we should ask of him not to attack ours if he doesn't really have an argument against it...

    Oh, and Grizzled, if you want to get into that old faith alone argument again I'd love to discuss it with you...
     
  10. Friendly Fan

    Friendly Fan PinetreeFM60 Exposed

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    with each increasingly virulent response, you make my case

    I've stated it well, and it doesn't require repeating.
     
  11. Friendly Fan

    Friendly Fan PinetreeFM60 Exposed

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    No it's not. I've been saying it for 20 years.

    Jesus was the man. Christianity is a religion.


    Christianity is the religion that allegedly follows him. I have read the Bible and know quite a bit of history, so I have my interpretation of what Jesus wanted, and it's not Christianity.
     
  12. Friendly Fan

    Friendly Fan PinetreeFM60 Exposed

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    Here's another way of looking at Jesus, from an online source. If you feel a need to argue, please pick any point and argue it.

    The Jesus Seminar is a group of academic theologians who study Christian writings from the 1st to 3rd century CE, from a religiously liberal perspective. They are composed of members with "Protestant, Catholic, Jewish and independent" backgrounds. 1 Their initial goal was to determine what Jesus really said. Their second goal was to describe what Jesus really did.

    In the past, liberal and mainline religious academics have lectured, written articles in specialist journals, attended conferences and debated among themselves. They have taught generations of mainline and liberal divinity students. But their conclusions have rarely filtered down to the public.

    "The public is poorly informed of the assured results of critical scholarship, although those results are commonly taught in colleges, universities and seminaries. In this vacuum, drugstore books and slick magazines play on the fears and ignorance of the uniformed." 2, Page 34

    The Jesus Seminar attempts to change that through its conferences, press releases, books, webpage, 1 etc. The goal is: "to bring the quest of the historical Jesus of Nazareth to the center of a global forum." 1 That is, to extract what the participants have concluded to be the actual words and actions of Jesus from ancient writings, and present these to the public.

    Their conclusions differ greatly from what Christian denominations have historically taught. They are also in major conflict with the current beliefs of most present-day conservative Christians. Fellows of the Seminar do not regard Christian Scriptures as inerrant. They do not believe that the authors were uniquely inspired by God. Rather, they view the Bible as a very human document, composed by writers who actively promoted their own theological beliefs (or those of the group to which the writers belonged). The Seminar sees within early Christian writings the evolution of religious thought. The fellows study this over the approximately 28 decades from the time of the execution of Jesus (circa 30 CE) to about 310 CE. They see many passages in conflict with each other and with the historical record.

    The techniques used by the Jesus Seminar are often called by the theological term biblical criticism: "the study of the sources and literary methods employed by the biblical authors." 3 A better term for biblical criticism might be "biblical analysis." Theologians who use it to study the Bible are not criticizing (in the common sense of that term). They are analyzing the Bible in order to improve their understanding of it.
     
  13. Friendly Fan

    Friendly Fan PinetreeFM60 Exposed

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    Grizzled, Why, MadMax, all others who take a more standard view of Jesus and the Bible, here is my view, quoting from the above

     
  14. Grizzled

    Grizzled Member

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    ?! :confused: Ooooookay. I think I'm beginning to clue in. We're just dealing with a troll here twhy77. He just makes it up as he goes along. And yeah, I'd like to continue the "faith alone" discussion. If there's enough interest here we could do it in its own thread, or we could do it via email. Whichever suits you is fine with me.
     
  15. twhy77

    twhy77 Member

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    So what excactly do they believe, and how can you trust them if you use the same rationale you use for not trusting organized religion...?
     
  16. Friendly Fan

    Friendly Fan PinetreeFM60 Exposed

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    I'm very serious about Jesus and my beliefs.
     
    #76 Friendly Fan, Aug 19, 2003
    Last edited: Aug 19, 2003
  17. twhy77

    twhy77 Member

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    I don't think we are neccesarily dealing with a troll... I think it is good that one investigates the history of a text that both of our denominations hold to be sacred scripture and inspired by God....

    I ask friendly this... what do you agree with or disagree with in the following ---->

    The Nicene Creed
    We believe in one God,
    the Father, the Almighty,
    maker of heaven and earth,
    of all that is, seen and unseen.

    We believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ,
    the only Son of God,
    eternally begotten of the Father,
    God from God, Light from Light,
    true God from true God,
    begotten, not made,
    of one Being with the Father.
    Through him all things were made.
    For us and for our salvation
    he came down from heaven:
    by the power of the Holy Spirit
    he became incarnate from the Virgin Mary,
    and was made man.
    For our sake he was crucified under Pontius Pilate;
    he suffered death and was buried.
    On the third day he rose again
    in accordance with the Scriptures;
    he ascended into heaven
    and is seated at the right hand of the Father.
    He will come again in glory to judge the living and the dead,
    and his kingdom will have no end.

    We believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life,
    who proceeds from the Father and the Son.
    With the Father and the Son he is worshiped and glorified.
    He has spoken through the Prophets.
    We believe in one holy catholic and apostolic Church.
    We acknowledge one baptism for the forgiveness of sins.
    We look for the resurrection of the dead,
    and the life of the world to come. Amen.

    I.E. do you agree with the Church's stance and the teaching of Aquinas that, Revalation provides for the first principles of faith, and then reason deduces the secondary tenents of a faith...i.e. church doctrine.

    Then I ask what are these different views that these historians at the Jesus Seminar have come up with? Once again, you just say different, well you haven't given us anything to see what is so different yet...
     
  18. Grizzled

    Grizzled Member

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    Strictly speaking, I don’t think a person even needs to have read the Bible to understand the character of Jesus.

    And as a point of information, I’m very far from being a “Conservative Christian” as that term is typically understood. I’m more of a Social Gospel type Christian, although I strongly resist labels. I don’t think of myself as a Protestant or a Catholic either, just a Christian.
     
  19. twhy77

    twhy77 Member

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    Well, keep in mind you are calling his religion a farce, (which I have probably been guilty to have done before as well ;) ) but, I think we should all just argue a little bit more rationally from here on out, everybody should be able to reasonably keep their cool and I'm sure grizzled will have no problem with that. Ok, I'm going to read 30 pages of Joyce's Ulysses and then get back to this, ok?
     
  20. Friendly Fan

    Friendly Fan PinetreeFM60 Exposed

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    I've been studying the Bible for a life time, so my journey and where I have ended up has been part of that trip. I concluded in my 20s that Christianity as conformed was nothing like Jesus, and rejected it. I studied the history of the world, all the world's religions, and all the world's spiritual philosophers.

    Out of that process, I re-examined Jesus, and read his words in a new light, one unencumbered by Christian predispositions. I concluded, like the members of the Jesus Seminar, that the gospels are full of embellishments and tales that were not of Jesus.

    Like I tried to say much earlier, the gulf between your views and mine are based in our view of the Bible and Christianity. Our views are radically different.
     
    #80 Friendly Fan, Aug 19, 2003
    Last edited: Aug 19, 2003

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