Woody Allen in LOVE AND DEATH covered this, playing a French soldier marching into the Russian winter, surrounded by fallen comrades. Comrade: "God is testing us." Woody: "I wish he would make it written." me too, Woody. You would think the master of all in the Universe could put together a tighter story.
i don't want to be a jerk here...but don't you think a statement like that is a bit presumptuous? that we would pretend to be able to second-guess "the master of all in the Universe" is absolutely laughable, in my view. particularly if that master is omniscient, as people like me allege.
Makes me think that there should be Snopes-style site that would, in an unbiased fashion, screen ALL posts for slanderous inaccuracies. If you'll pardon my annoying reliance on facts, it's not quite accurate to say that the Bush administration has lied repeatedly wants to kill huge numbers of Iraqis. It is quite a misrepresentation to suggest that religious people blindly supported the murder of the Iraqi people, though it sure is a wonderful way to label and demonize a majority of our population. Perhaps there might exist a segment (majority) of our society who believes in freedom and liberty for all people and that no entire country of civilians should be forced to serve as fodder for a historically brutal, tyrannical regime.
I don't want to be one either, but Is it presumptuous? Aren't ALL beliefs in God presumptuous? It's presumptuous for anyone to believe he knows what God intended. I don't believe God would ever put his name to the thing called religion. That is my opinion and I recognize it as an opinion, not a fact. All beliefs in God are opinions, and they largely reflect the individual. that's why everyone thinks God is exactly how they envision him or it.
It is quite a misrepresentation to suggest that religious people blindly supported the murder of the Iraqi people Actually I claimed that Born Again Christians almost alone were for killing Iraqis. (War kills people). Most of the worlds' religious people and their leaders opposed the war. Maybe you can explain what it is about Evangelical or Born Again Christians (sorry if the terminology is wrong) that made them oppose most of Chrstianity and support the war. Is it just a simple subjugation of their religion to conservative political leaders? Is their theoology different? What is different about that type of religion? Note Jimmy Carter is a Born Again Christian and he opposed the war so it isn't all members of these chruchs.
Don’t mean to butt in but I felt compelled to respond to this. No. For a more detailed answer you’ll have to state why you think they are. I think you are misrepresenting his position. Max is telling you what he believes. He’s not claiming to know absolute truth. And yet it has endured and been a powerful message for hundreds of millions of people over thousands of years. If you’ll pardon my saying so, it seems a bit ridiculous to me to simply brush that history off as ridiculous. Why do you think he did? I suspect that the religion you are speaking of is the man made construct and not God’s intent, but feel free to elaborate. Edit: I see you edited you post before I could post my response. You have toned it down, but I'm kind of interested in your somewhat angry first response, so I'll leave this as it is.
Grizzled, I'm not going to get into a discussion with you because I have observed your methods. It is pointless. I know what you think, and I reject it. you have your beliefs, and I don't share them. no amount point-counterpoint with you will suffice because you're a zealot. I've already heard everything you have to say an rejected it, probably before you ever learned it. I reject it out of knowledge, not out of ignorance. part of my religion is not believing your religion, but it's not important to me to change your mind or persuade you to think like I think. Jesus said "those who have ears, let them hear." I think I do hear him, and I've no need to convince you I'm right or you're wrong.
Personally, I think that the root of all religions is a simple desire that most people have to want to explore their spirituality with like minded individuals. That desire in and of itself is admirable and even desirable, IMO. Remember, however, that organized religion is constructed entirely by human beings who are just as able to make mistakes as the next human. Human fallability is the biggest problem with organized religion. Certainly, there are religions that, again IMO, hit closer to the mark than others and even within religions, there are leaders and congregations that hit closer to the truth than others. When it comes down to it, it is up to us to identify the best way we can find to communicate with whatever higher power we believe in, even if that communication is none at all. I don't have a problem with the ideals, prophets, or saints of any particular religion, I have a problem with people who use those things for their own purposes (amassing riches and playing politics are examples).
You specifically wrote the following - Maybe I'm just missing something. First of all, in your haste to label, could you please provide me a link to the form I fill out to become a "Born Again Christian"? I was not aware that there was a "sect" so named. Also, provide me the link to the info that suggests that most of Christianity does not support the war. People sure love to make blanket assumption and generalizations, such as that an entire religion does not approve of the war.
I know you've only been here a short time, so you have yet to get to know many of the established posters -- but to call Grizzled a zealot is about as far as you can get from the truth. He is one of the most thoughtful and intelligent posters we have here, and I wish there were more like him. I don't share his religious beliefs (or anyone's on the board, as far as I can tell) but I've never found him to be anything but insightful and rational when it comes to religious discussions.
he seems to be a Christian who seeks to persuade others of his correctness. to me a zealot is one who prosyletizes his faith. obviously, as one who doesn't want to be prosyletized, I see that as zealotry this thread is based upon one simple thought: God allowing 9/11 to happen by not stopping it. in my view, if one comes down on the wrong side, he's presumptively a zealot however, upon having re-read the thread, I see that Grizzled hasn't done that. replace zealot with "devout" Grizzled struck me as one who has devout Christian beliefs, and as one who wants to spread his gospel as he understands it. This is not the only thread on which I have seen him opine regarding matters of religion, so this thread is not the universe of my knowledge regarding his positions. I may not know what he believes, but I know he's not going to be in agrement with me by his posts.
First of all, in your haste to label, could you please provide me a link to the form I fill out to become a "Born Again Christian"? I was not aware that there was a "sect" so named. You may be right. I'm not that familiar with the terminology. Is Evangelical Christianity a better phrase? Are all Evangelicals "born again". See my later post about my admitted confusion regarding the terminology. Iwas going off memory. The Catholic Church, the Anglican Church and the various churchs in the World Council of Church's opposed the war. Without too much time the best doc I have is: churchs
You would think the master of all in the Universe could put together a tighter story. I thought He-Man was the Master of the Universe and those cartoons were pretty well done? What more do we want?
so as Christians, we can't have discussions with you about our faith on this board?? you're going to assume we have some sinister plan to "get you?" again..Grizzled is a voice of reason on these boards over and over. he's just a good guy. we all have our beliefs on a myriad of subjects here...
Well thank you Mrs. JB! I’m not always as considered and measured as I’d like to be, but I try. And I don’t think I’ve ever been called a zealot before. I’m guessing that there must be something else that is colouring Friendly’s perception on this one.
glynch - i know PCUSA (Presbyterian Church - USA) came out against the war, too. i think the Lutherans did as well. it's a very tough issue for many Christians to consider. i suppose it is for a lot of us, regardless of faith.
