Let's go there: Are the unvaccinated the new Trumps?

Millions of Kids are now hated by the D&Ders
find some toddlers at day care and shame them
! Hey kid vaccinate now !
Stick a needle like that bum their did on Venice beach .. oh wait that’s heroin
Never mind
@Os Trigonum

#obvious loophole

 

The cost to vaccinate the whole world is not that great or the problem. The vaccine is estimated to eventually cost about $1.50 per dose. So say $ 9 billion. The real problem is the ignorance and fear of the anti-vaxxers.
So your whole world argument is weak.

As for for your B cells argument I guess it is true that if you never vaccinated anyone in a few generations or so after a massive die off like in the Black Plague surviving humanity will developed immunity.

 

It looks like that story is on a cable news network. The same ones that you claim don't talk about unvaccinated kids.

 

music festivals
Must be organized by political parties right ?
@J.R.

 

That is absolutely true, but for some bizarre reason, you have people on this very forum tying themselves into knots attempting to imply, or outright declare that somehow it isn't.

 

I don't argue about the cost. I argue about how realistic it is to vaccinate everyone. It's simply not possible. But if you did it wouldn't get rid of the virus because variations would occur too quickly in the process of vaccinating the world, and somehow it would find a way since our vaccines are 80-90 percent effective. Also you would literally kill some people who have health issues and can't take such medicine.

Also I think you need to look up how B cells work (I don't mean that to be rude; just do some googling on it because it's related to vaccines and not just catching the actual virus). Basically, after getting an imitation virus from a vaccine, your body creates B and T cells which can acts as a memory for recognizing pathogens. It's not about actually getting the virus in all instances. Also please don't bring up the black plague... we are not there yet. It's a really bad, sometimes deadly, cold.

My main point is... well... we are not getting rid of it. We need to find a way to live with it and the vaccine argument is at this point mute. People can get them and or not. This utopian world where everyone gets a vaccine doesn't even work and it's become a political cudgel for many. Or it's a safety blanket for the fearful. It's hard to accept that we now live in a world like our ancestors did; one where death can come knocking much earlier. But you're safe mostly if you get your vaccine, so relax. Treatments are improving too.

I think it's productive to talk about how we can increase vaccine usage ethically and honestly. The first step is to normalize it by getting it through FDA trials completely and releasing honest and open data on it. Second, I think politicians need to advise people to seek advice from their medical professionals and stop bringing it into the forefront of the political arena. People don't trust the government, the media, or Big Pharma, so these trust issues must be addressed without going down an authoritarian route which only breeds resentment, alienation, and mistrust. It hearkens back to the age old wisdom: you can catch more flies with honey than with vinegar.

 

Vaccinated people are much less likely to have serious complications and death than unvaccinated. In your world where everyone is eventually exposed, everyone would then want to be vaccinated to reduce their chances of serious complications and death.

EDIT: add pic for illustration

 

I don't see what you are getting at. I just suggested that the vaccine helps. Yes I know about it reducing complications. This is tied to the immune system being able to remember the virus type and mount an immune reaponse. That is what i waa getting at.

 

And you also said "the vaccine argument is mute, people can get them or not". It's not mute since it's much more protective than not being vaccinated. And in your world where everyone is exposed, you want to be vaccinated. In a world where maybe some escape exposure, it's not as critically important (though it is important to reduce spread, exposure and chances of new deadlier variants).

 

This is all true.

I’m not sure these numbers will be that persuasive to people who focus on total percentages rather than the percent difference.

If both A and B are really improbable, then the fact that A is 10 times or 20 times more likely than B is not as alarming.

As long as the unvaccinated are fine with the percentages of serious illness for them being around only 1%, it may be difficult to convince them. They are looking at it purely in terms of how it will affect them, not the aggregate numbers for the society.

 

some people are looking at science, data and risk and deciding not to get vaccinated. I know a few folks in this camp, both republicans and Dems.

But it sure seems like the unvaccinated are largely comprised of folks who decided based on politics, misinformation, vaccine and covid deniers. your last sentence is spot on. They don’t give a crap about society.

 

My thoughts on this: if you don't want to get vaccinated, that's your call. I'm not going to try and convince you otherwise, however, you shouldn't try to make it out to be a "us vs. them" battle because it's really not that deep. That being said, if you choose to not get vaccinated and, God forbid, end up getting COVID and die from it, what did you ultimately gain out of the whole exercise?

 

It's because, deep down, the people who choose to not get vaccinated are waiting for that moment where they are "right" so that they can say to all their friends and family who got vaccinated "I told you so". They are waiting for that moment where their Googling and hours of YouTube watching validate their belief that they are smarter than healthcare professionals and experts. To them, that sense of superiority is worth more than life itself, regardless if that life is a strangers, theirs or a loved one's.

 

Vaccines mutate?

 

I honestly do not care anymore. There are people in other first world countries begging for the vaccine and we have high school dropouts that took pills from strangers expressing doubts about it. it.

You know that Seinfeld gif where he's in the theater? That's me. I'm done. If you ask me, this country needs a good culling anyway.

 

It is always interesting when I catch Fox occasionally to see that the startlingly kooky posts by the usual suspects on this forum are reflected in Fox's programming. Yet they deny ever turning it on. OK they might be getting it from their main new sources such as Instagram like my anti-vax sister in Austin who does not watch any other news as it is anxiety provoking

 

Right. Risk vs rewards calculation at the individual level. It's why > 65 vaccinate at a high rate.

One problem with talking about covid that I brought a couple of times is the black and white view of it. People weight vaccination risks (short terms risks are well known and long term is unlikely based on the history of vaccines but of course unknown) vs a black and white view of covid impact - dead or not. People keep forgetting that long covid is a real thing with an estimate of 10-20% of infected being impacted, that there is a strong correlation that it will make you stupider and that long term impact is unknown but we do have a history of virus infection coming back years later in life (e.g shingles from chickenpox virus, the rare but fatal SSPE from the measles virus).

Anyhow, each person can make their own decision. And society can restrict their impact, as we are starting to see more and more of as private and public sector requires proof of vaccination.

 

It would be hard to not think of this as an "us vs. them thing" when a family member can't get an ICU bed in an emergency because a vaccine denier is occupying it.

 

Fair point

 

Covid impact on ICU is worse due to duration. I read that typical ICU stay is 3-5 days. For Covid, it's 16 days.