Lets all welcome Cowher, Gruden, Shannahan, or Holmgreen to the 2010 Texans!

But earlier, you were saying:

For 6 of the 7 seasons the Colts couldn't win a title because their defense was so bad it required them to score constantly to win

You were saying the Colts had to score on offense all the time because their defense was giving up tons of points. Now you're saying the defense wasn't giving up many points because the offense was scoring lots of points?

It also doesn't account for the fact that the Colts were #2 in offense the year before Dungy got there, but still went 6-10 with the worst defense in the league.

Understood - I just think there's plenty of evidence that he turned around the Colts defense. That said, his problems in Tampa were always offense, so he really benefited from Manning in that regard. I'd go with Cowher as my #1 option as well.

 

Beginning in 2002:

2002: L to Jets, 0-41

2003: W vs Broncos, 41-10
W vs Kansas City, 38-31
L vs Patriots 24-14

2004:
W vs Broncos 49-24
L vs Patriots, 20-3

2005:
L vs Steelers, 21-18

2006
W vs KC 23-8
W vs Baltimore 15-6
W vs NE 38-34
W vs Chicago 29-17

2007
L vs Chargers 28-24

2008
L vs Chargers 23-17

That's a lot of points being scored against a good defense.

 

So if the defense wasn't making a difference...or if the offense was carrying them as you say...then why were the Colts 6-10 before Dungy got there even though they had the 2nd best offense in the league? Personally, I think Dungy and Manning were a match made in heaven, especially considering how poorly Manning has been in the postseason.

And to clarify, I'm not saying Dungy is a better coach than Cowher. I'm saying it makes no sense to say he was riding his QB when:

- He had winning seasons before he got to Indy (how did Manning do pre Dungy?)
- The Colts were a high scoring team before he got there, yet still a losing team
- The Colts defense was good after his arrival (see ]Major's post showing their rankings)
- The Colts were routinely a winning team after he got there
- The only time they won was when their defense was dominating in the playoffs (when it matters most), even though the QB was playing like garbage.

Yes I realize they had to get to the playoffs and I give Manning props for his typical stellar regular season play. That's why I say at the least you give both dual credit. But all signs point to Dungy making a big difference, especially when they finally won.

 

Being fair, you should mention that they were also a 13-win team before Dungy got there. The 6-win season that got Mora fired was the only bad year of the Manning era other than his rookie campaign.

 

Why point to a handful of games against the best teams in the league when you have a much larger sample of season-long data available - and data that actually provides comparisons against the other teams in the league? From the stats you posted, it looks like they were giving up about 20 pts per game against the best of the best. That's a pretty good defense - it would rank around average this year if they were playing ALL teams, not just good teams. How did other teams fare against playoff opponents?

I also still can't understand if you're saying the defense was giving up lots of points or if the defense was only not giving up lots of points because of a good offense?

 

Yes, the defense made a difference. It takes two sides of the football. I agree that Dungy and Manning were a match made in heaven. That goes to my point though. It's hard for me to know how good Dungy is as a head coach.

After Peyton's rookie season, the Colts went 13-3 and then 10-6 before falling to 6-10.

Dungy definitely made a difference. As I said, arguing led to me take up a position I don't really hold. My point is it's harder for me to know how much was Dungy in Indy.

I'm saying that the defense was helped along by the fact that Peyton would put points on the board that forced other teams to abandon the run and try to pass the football.

 

That's true. But the point is they weren't just winning because Manning was dominant. He was dominant and they were losing. A great QB still needs stops (see Marino).

 

If that's the case we don't know how good anyone is if they have had good players on their teams. How good of a coach was Bill Walsh using that logic?

Yes and how much playoff success did they have? How did Manning do in the postseason?

Not when they finaly won. Manning wasn't putting a lot of points on the board and had a high number of turnovers. In their only winning season (the pinnacle as you say), the Colts overcame Manning's poor play to win. Yes, I admit he had a great regular season....as he always did. But he also played poorly in the postseason, as he usually did.

 

I really don't see how you can push that when they were 29-19 the 3 years before Dungy arrived.

You could make that statement about our passing offense of the past 3 years, but to say it about Manning's is dubious.

 

He, and his offense were dominant that season pre Dungy....yet they still had a losing record that yr. Your team still has to get the other team off the field.

They were 29-19 in the regular season pre Dungy, but the playoff record was???? The poster I'm responding to claimed Dungy reached the pinnacle because he rode his QB and an offense that he had nothing to do with. That's as far from the truth as you can get, considering the manner in which the Colts won their SB and Manning's consistent poor postseason performance.

 

I don't want to keep this argument up, but if you think those four games in one postseason are the true measure of what was happening in Indy, then we aren't ever going to agree on anything in this discussion and we need to move on.

 

Those 4 games were arguably the most important ones of the season. It doesn't matter if you go 16-0 if you lose your playoff games. You went 16-0 for nothing.

I agree with your premise that Dungy may not be the best coach in the world, or that we don't know if it's him or the players. But I think we can say that about any coach....and I do feel like you are dismissing his contributions to that SB team. The fact is the team got to the postseason...Manning played bad (again)...and the defense played great and they won the title.

 

that and he took a raiders team to the superbowl as well.....with rich gannon at quarterback..........

 

Actually that wasnt him. Gruden took them to the Tuck Rule game. Bill Callahan took the Raiders to the Super Bowl against Gruden's Bucs.