Lets all welcome Cowher, Gruden, Shannahan, or Holmgreen to the 2010 Texans!

True, but don't forget the regular season. You've got to get to the playoffs, right. The Colts were 23rd in the league in points allowed per game, and 21st in yards allowed per game. Their defense was not good, yet they still started the season 9-0 and finished 12-4, which let them play a 9-7 Chiefs team at home.

Ever playoff team is good, of course, but Manning was able to make some mistakes in that game because it was against the 6th seed. Plus, despite the Colts had 435 yards of total offense and controlled the ball for 40 minutes.

I agree with your overall assessment, though...Dungy got that defense to "nut up" in the playoffs, and when the playoffs came around, for the most part, they won without much help from Peyton.

Plus, Dungy did take the perennial loser Bucs to the playoffs in his second year, and effectively built their Super Bowl team. I think Dungy is a great coach.

That said, I still think Cowher is the offseason prize. Granted, he was handed the reigns of a perennial NFL powerhouse team, but they had only made the playoffs once in the prior seven years and hadn't won double digit games in 8 years. But they weren't horrible, either. They consistently won between 6 and 9 games a year at the end of Noll's run. Cowher had them at 11-5 his first year, and they won double digit games each of the first six years except 1. Made the Superbowl in 95. And then, after hitting a bit of a rough patch, he built them up again.

The Texans are clearly more perennial loser then NFL powerhouse. But I still think they have talent, they need a louder motivator type, and the situation would be somewhat more analgous to Cowher taking over a Steelers than Dungy coming into the Bucs.

Whatever, either one would be an upgrade.

 

This is my only point. I said earlier in the thread that my argument isn't that Dungy is a bad coach, rather I have no idea how good he really is. For all the praise he gets as a defensive coach in Tampa, his "system" basically sucked his entire tenure in Indy aside from one playoff run. It's similar to Brian Billick in Baltimore imo. The guy was this offensive guru, went to Baltimore and the offensive never got better but they won a SB because of their amazing defense. Did that make Billick a good coach?

My only question about Cowher is how much decision making power did he have in Pittsburgh. Did he get to help find players? Did he just make them fit?

 

i dont know how you say dungy's tenure in indy sucked. 1 superbowl and a total record of 85-27...the guy basically averaged 12-4. Yes, they got booted early a couple times in the playoffs. twice to a chargers team whose defense was pretty awesome and matched up well with the colts.

The other times they got booted in the playoffs was to the superbowl champs. It's not like they were losing to scrub teams.

 

When did I say his tenure there sucked? His tenure there was fantastic. I said his defensive system sucked.

 

Yes, but if you F up in the playoffs then does it really matter what you did in the regular season? Aren't players judged in the end by what they do in the postseason? It's why we elevate MJ and Hakeem so much, because they played better. It's why we downgrade T-Mac or Karla Malone, because they underperformed.

I'm not arguing that Dungy didn't have a major benefit by having Manning. But you can't say he rode Manning to the pinnacle when Manning underperformed in the playoffs almost every year, and played like garbage for the majority of their playoff games during the Super Bowl run. At the least, you give equal props to both. But it's not possible to ride your QB to the pinnacle when he rarely played well in the postseason.

IIRC, their defense really suffered when Bob Sanders was hurt and took a major turn when he came back. So if anything, say Dungy rode Bob Sanders to the pinnacle.

He was able to make mistakes because the defense was having a record game. One of the reasons they controlled the ball so much is because the Colts defense was holding the Chiefs to record low yardage numbers. Even when a Manning turnover gave them the ball in the red zone, the defense got it right back without giving up points.

I think tha pairing was a match made in heaven....a great QB with a defensive guru at his side, and vice versa. But when they won it all the defense was leading the way.

 

Except for the year that they (the defense) led them to the championship while the HOF QB was playing like garbage. LOL......

 

Dude, I know reading comprehension sucks in this country, but please read my posts. I already acknowledged that the defense nutted up for that playoff run. I specifically listed that stretch as the exception.

Out of curiosity though, if we hired a head coach who was an offensive genius and the offense was abysmal for 6 out of 7 years, what would we say about his offensive system?

If Peyton Manning hadn't been MVPing all over the NFL, what would Dungy's legacy be?

 

My comprehension is fine. Your earlier post said he got to the pinnacle based on his QB and an offense that he had nothing to do with. That isn't true. They reached the pinnacle by riding an outstanding defensive effort, which helped them overcome Manning's poor play. As great as Manning is, he has never been great in the postseason. So it makes no sense to say Dungy rode him to a title.

That's all I'm saying. At the least, you have to give him just as much credit as you give Manning for their lone championship.

Edit: And before that title Manning's legacy was a choker that couldn't win the big game.

 

Other then Cowher, all of these guys were run out of their particular teams in dramatic fashion and in recently. Only Shannahan has some degree of success but that is tainted by the fact that he is Gary Kubiak's mentor (and probably wouldn't screw Gary over by taking the job) and he likes to both coach and control the GM position, which in the later years of Denver lead to a great offense but a crappy defensive unit.

 

Dungy absolutely was not run off.

 

neither was holmgren

 

Peyton Manning carried them to the playoffs that year in another of his amazing seasons. The defense played great in the playoffs, there is no denying that. But if hadn't been for Peyton Manning, Tony Dungy's defensive scheme would never have amounted to anything outside of Tampa Bay. For 6 of the 7 seasons the Colts couldn't win a title because their defense was so bad it required them to score constantly to win, but one of those seasons they put it all together and won a title thanks to the defense playing up to par. Why doesn't that reflect at all on the defensive head coach?

 

6 of his 7 seasons?

In 2008, they were #7 in scoring defense.
In 2007, they were #1 in scoring defense.
In 2005, they were #2 in scoring defense.

 

Manning has had numerous amazing regular seasons. He has never had an amazing postseason run, not even when they won their title. You know what does amazing in the regular season and down in the postseason get you....no success when it really matters and a choker label. Amazing regular seasons don't win titles. So again, it makes no sense to say Dungy rode his QB to the pinnacle when his QB has never played up to standards in the postseason. It definately doesn't make sense considering how poorly Manning played in that Super Bowl run, unless your rgument is that the regular season matters more than the postseason.

 

How well would they have done in the postseason if they didn't have Peyton Manning all those years steering them to the playoffs and they still had Dungy's defense?

 

Pretty good, probably, given that they had a great defense in 3 of his last 4 years - the 4th being the Superbowl year when they got healthy in the playoffs and were great then too.

The Colts were dead last in defense the year before he got there (2001).

They were #8th in his first year (2002).
#20th in 2003
#19 in 2004
#2 in 2005
#23 in 2006
#1 in 2007
#7 in 2008

They were 6-10 before he got there and haven't missed the playoffs since. He's had the defense in the top 10 in 4 out of the 7 years. I'd say Dungy made the defense a whole lot better and helped the team win quite a bit.

 

Thanks for pulling the numbers. I also wanted to note that in 2006 Bob Sanders missed almost the entire season. When he came back right before the playoffs), it was a completely different defense.

 

So to make sure I have it right....Dungy rode Manning to the pinnacle because Manning played great in the regular season....even though he routinely played poorly in the postseason? So should we take the 2007 Super Bowl away from the Giants and give it to the Patriots, since they were undefeated in the regular season?

 

We'll just have to agree to disagree. Without Peyton Manning putting up points, that defense wouldn't have been able to survive. When teams weren't trying to score like crazy on them they had good success against the Colts.

Like I said though, this argument is polarizing me to a position I don't really hold. I think Tony Dungy is a good head coach, I just don't know how good he is and I think there is more evidence supporting Bill Cowher being a great coach than there is Tony Dungy.

 

No you don't have it right. I never said the regular season was more important than the postseason, but it is still important. You have to be in it to win it.