no offense b-bob, but bull****. basso has proven in the 5 months since obama's inauguration that he loves his party only.
That would all be great if any of it were true. Bush didn't stand on the side of liberty. Bush took liberties away from people and you stood with him, and defended him on it. I've also shown you, or rather Obama has,2 that he's stood against tyranny since the beginning. And please don't claim that you are willing to fight for liberty and against tyranny. You aren't willing to fight for anything. You won't even stick around in threads you start and fight for those once they've been shown to be completely false, wrong, hypocritical, etc. It's one thing to be self righteous. It's another to be self righteous about things that were never right to begin with, and you pretend like they are right. It's clear your aim is to tarnish Obama, not stand up for liberty, justice or against Tyranny. When the oppressive Iranian regime wants so badly to have Obama intervene more, so they can use the "common enemy" ploy to bring demonstrators back into the fold, you urge Obama to intervene more. That's standing up for what Ahmadinejad wants. And you are willing to do that in order to attack Obama. When there were public claims of Al-Qaeda demanding the U.S. leave Iraq, and that they would drive the U.S. out, our forces found internal memos of Al-Qaeda saying they wanted the U.S. to stay in Iraq, and how good it was for Al-Qaeda to have the U.S. occupying Iraq, and you ignored that evidence and continued to cheerlead a policy that was damaging to our nation. Your schtick is tired.
basso, please man up and have a discussion and don't run away.. you say you love your country, and will fight for liberty and freedom.. are you talking about only your countries liberty and freedom or every country's liberty or freedom?
If I recall correctly, basso has been consistently willing to sacrifice other people's liberty in the name of security when it comes to the war on terror - everything from treatment of detainees to torture to the Patriot Act.
man up? how many replies do i have in this thread? in general, i believe the united states should stand w/ those that are fighting for their liberty, no matter what country they're in. the form of that support will vary depending on what our realistic capabilities are in each locale. NK and Iran present vastly different challenges than Iraq or Sudan. i've said elsewhere in this thread that no one is advocating invading iran (or even bombing them, now). but there's far more we could, and should be doing than just expressing "concern." and as we've seen already, the MMs will blame the US no matter what we do- why not exert a bit more pressure?
so why not respond to everyone who posts something for you? so you're not really a country first guy but a world freedom/liberty first guy.. you are very willing to sacrifice american lives for another country's freedom/liberty..
depends on the situation. in iraq, our security was linked to freedom for iraqis. similarly, I believe that american security is enhanced by a democratic iran. darfur is an exceptional case, with no direct american interests at stake. however, we stood by and watched hundreds of thousands of innocents get slaughtered, when we could have done something about. IMHO, that was a morally wrong choice.
if all other factors were the same, then yes. but obviously, NK and Iran are much different cases strategically, geographically, differ in their military capabilities, so require different, unique, responses.
White House rescinding July 4 invitations to Iran diplomats From CNN State Department Producer Elise Labott WASHINGTON (CNN) - The Obama administration has decided to rescind invitations to Iranian diplomats for July Fourth celebrations overseas due to violent crackdowns against protesters in Iran, the White House said Wednesday. "July Fourth allows us to celebrate the freedom and the liberty we enjoy: freedom of speech, freedom of religion, freedom to assemble peacefully, freedom of the press," White House Spokesman Robert Gibbs told reporters. "Given the events of the past many days, those invitations will no longer be extended."
no doubt, this is a distraction. [rquoter]Iranian protester pleads for U.S., world to intervene Posted: 09:45 AM ET American Morning - amFIX Filed under: Iran A picture obtained on June 21, 2009 shows Iranian riot police on a street of Tehran on June 20, 2009. An Iranian student protester in Tehran made a passionate plea for help from the world community this morning in a phone call to CNN’s “American Morning.” For safety reasons, CNN can only identify the student by his first name, Mohammad. He’s been a part of the protests and a target of the violence there. Below is an edited transcript of the interview. John Roberts: What is the scene like on the streets? Are there more demonstrators out there on the streets? Or is it much quieter than it has been in recent days? Mohammad: Hello. Actually I participated in Saturday’s demonstrations in parts of Tehran. What I saw, I saw thousands of security officers that tried to break up the crowd. They used canisters and batons and water cannons against us. They attacked us. And we also in response attacked them. We attacked them by throwing stones. And we built trenches in the streets and actually defended too. Roberts: So there was quite a large confrontation going on there over the weekend. But can you tell us what the scene is like on the streets today? Mohammad: Today was a long day in Tehran. And yesterday there weren’t any organized rallies in Tehran. Because we take orders from our leader Mr. Karroubi and Mr. Mir Hossein Moussavi. The connections, the communication is very difficult, more than even you can imagine in Tehran. But I myself haven’t received any orders from our leaders yet. But as soon as I get any order, I will participate in any demonstration that they tell us. Kiran Chetry: When you say receiving orders, tell us how the protests are organized. How are you guys called to go and where? Mohammad: Actually, I’m a regular person. I’m not behind the scenes. I cannot tell you exactly how these demonstrations are organized. But as I know, as people said, there is a council, a group of Iranian reformists who organize these demonstrations and they tell us in any way that they could and we just follow. Chetry: Do you get it on your cell phone, text messages, are you able to use the internet? Mohammad: Actually, they reduce the internet speed. We have severe problems with the messenger software and every software like messengers. This is arranged by making calls, messages, calls to his friends or her friends and try to gather as much to tell as he or she can. Roberts: Mohammad, we have been talking this morning about what the students are fighting for and whether the students are fighting for something different than the older more established political candidates like Moussavi. Are the students seeking regime change? Are they looking to bring down the Ayatollah and completely change the form of government there in Iran? Or are you looking for – as has been suggested – more civil rights, more freedoms within the context of the existing regime? Expert: Protesters want civil rights, not revolution Mohammad: Yes. Let me tell you something. For about three decades our nation has been humiliated and insulted by this regime. Now Iranians are united again one more time after 1979 Revolution. We are a peaceful nation. We don’t hate anybody. We want to be an active member of the international community. We don’t want to be isolated. Is this much of a demand for a country with more than 2,500 years of civilization? We don’t deny the Holocaust. We do accept Israel’s rights. And actually, we want — we want severe reform on this structure. This structure is not going to be tolerated by the majority of Iranians. We need severe reform, as much as possible. Roberts: Interesting perspective this morning from Mohammad, a student demonstrator there in Tehran. Mohammad: Excuse me, sir. I have a message for the international community. Would you please let me tell it? Roberts: Yes, go ahead. Mohammad: Americans, European Union, international community, this government is not definitely — is definitely not elected by the majority of Iranians. So it’s illegal. Do not recognize it. Stop trading with them. Impose much more sanctions against them. My message…to the international community, especially I’m addressing President Obama directly – how can a government that doesn’t recognize its people’s rights and represses them brutally and mercilessly have nuclear activities? This government is a huge threat to global peace. Will a wise man give a sharp dagger to an insane person? We need your help international community. Don’t leave us alone. Chetry: Mohammad, what do you think the international community should do besides sanctions? Mohammad: Actually, this regime is really dependent on importing gasoline. More than 85% of Iran’s gasoline is imported from foreign countries. I think international communities must sanction exporting gasoline to Iran and that might shut down the government.[/rquoter]
At the risk of siding with Basso looking back on the situation Obama's reaction might've been too cautious. In the article for the thread I posted on Arab reaction to events in Iran one of the Egyptian pro-democracy activist did say they were hoping for more from the Obama admin. I don't think in Iran strong rhetoric would've made that much of a difference as its clear that regime was set on its course anyway but it might've made a difference in the wider Middle East.
Except you're making the same mistake as basso here and judging results in a two week period. What really matters - and what will actually affect Egypt's opposition groups - is what happens over the next year or two. What Obama is doing is trying to create the best result there instead of doing things which only hurt the long-term potential for Iran. There's no doubt speaking out more assertively would have given a boost to the protestors - and these Egyptian opposition groups. It also would have given the gov't much more justification for cracking down on the protests in Iran. The Egyptian groups don't have to deal with those consequences, so it's easy to say that the West should speak out more. Iran's last revolution took two years. Let's give this one time before declaring it a failure. If it succeeds, that will help the other countries' opposition groups far more than Obama's words of support might have.
