I'm just so depressed about it. In Bahrain, it is worse than it looks. I know that in Bahrain, as long as there are protests, there will be murder. Even if that means killing every single shi'ite, it won't stop. They will just brutally murder them until they stop. In Libya, it is WAY worse than it looks. Gaddafi's men are using anti aircraft weapons to gun down groups of protestors. Just pure execution, not even bothering beating them or pushing them back most of the time.
Mathloom, don't the different reactions of Mubarak vs. the rulers of Bahrain and Libya prove that Mubarak was in fact not just as bad as those guys?
I won't comment on Libya because frankly I don't know enough about it. From the outside, it appears that Gaddhafi is worse than Mubarak. However, it confuses me because I know that Libyans are/were significantly better off in terms of food, education, education etc versus Egyptians under Mubarak. As for Bahrain, Mubarak is worse. The only reason Mubarak didn't kill more people is that the 1.3bn aid was going to the military, and therefore the military refused to follow Mubarak's orders since they knew they could retain that 1.3bn after he was gone. The other reason is that the world was watching Egypt, and he would have to kill a huge number of people with the media already present in the country before protests took off on a large scale. Before this next paragraph I want to say one thing: No peaceful protestor should ever be attacked. I am against every attack against any peaceful protestor in the world, including in Bahrain. However, it is important to recognize that the Iranian threat to Bahrain is real and legitimate (unlike many were claiming about Egypt, where Iran is irrelevant). While that doesn't make it ok for the Bahraini government to engage in this behavior, it does give you an idea of what they are thinking. While I also have no doubt that there are elements of Iranian support for this uprising, I think those are being blown out of proportion, especially given the presence of the Fifth Fleet of the US in Bahrain (I believe roughly 50% of the entire country is a parking lot for US armed forces). Also, keep in mind what they are asking for. While their grievances are legitimate, they are not comparable to Egyptian grievances under Mubarak. Egyptians were/are in a far worse state than Bahraini shiites. Just to give outsiders an idea of the scale of shiite-sunni tensions in the gulf region, it is far worse than you imagine. For some odd reason which I can't understand fully, Sunnis hate Shiites and fear them more than they do any other religion. In turn, Shiites have stuck with each other, given their history of being persecuted, and have created a kind of tight-knit community which is much more adept at transcending borders. It is distinct from Sunni-Shiite relations in the rest of the world because it is far more vicious here. The only way I can describe it is the most silent disdain and distrust of each other I've ever seen. I also have lots of first hand experience given that my family name is Iranian-ish, and when I meet Emiratis for the first time, they are extremely distant with me unless I explicitly tell them I'm NOT shiite. lol My own opinion on the Bahrain protests is that they should've never started protesting. They make up 60-70% of the country, they can easily bring the country to its knees without ever having to leave their homes I think. Once they get the other non-elite 30% to feel the pain, then the government really has no choice. The other 30% really do have grievances as well, but since people have spun the protest into a pro-shiite theme, they are reluctant to join in.
May ALL the protesters of all these nations (Algeria, Iran, Libya, Bahrian etc.) succeed with the least loss possible. Iran is especially galling. Nations like that that have been known to fire on their own citizens with impunity should not be given a second chance. Same applies for Bahrian and Libya now.
Freedom is chaos. And inevitable. Social entropy has gone critical. It's a chain reaction. I would have never expected this in my lifetime. Good Luck Citizens!
If you re in the mood for comedy, horror and disgust, please watch the speech of Saif al Islam Gaddhafi (Muammar's son) from last night. The speech came amid reports that Muammar fled to Venezuela, and Mutassam (the other son) actually fired bullets at Saif. He then proceeds to discuss, in summary: - No one else in Libya is competent enough to run the oil business. - Libya will be divided into 3 states. - Libyans will need visas to see each other and wait weeks to get them. - Two of the state will become Islamic Emirates. - US and UK will invade Libya to ensure that Islamic states are not formed. - Tribes of each state will be in civil war for 40 years. - Tourism will die forever. - No foreigner will invest in Libya again, $200bn worth of projects will be gone. - Willing to delegate powers to 3 states with central govt remaining in place. - Libya will become like Korea (North South). - Armed Egyptians and Tunisians are in the country and casuing chaos. - Most of the protestors are on drugs. Possibly alcohol. - Drunk and drugged peopel have stolen tanks and are driving around. - Libya can't be a democracy because it contains tribes. - Tens of thousands will die from civil war. - Army is committed to leader, won't sell him out. - Gaddhafi not going anywhere. - BBC, Al Jazeera and CNN are illusionists. - Other Arabs are passively supporting this while sipping tea and laughing it off. That's off the top of my head. I swear I'm not exaggerating. He said all that and more in 40 minutes. As the speech goes on, you discover what's going on. He's actually a very gifted public speaker. He starts out saying these things will happen, but oh-so gradually it very clearly becomes a threat, that his family will ensure that all those things happen before they leave. In short: either we stay, or consider this a declaration of war on the people of Libya. Things will get very very very very ugly in a few hours. If you can tune it, please do so.
War is chaos too. I wonder what our role will be played in this. Saudi and Israeli influence are pushing a status quo that should've died with the Cold War.
Looks like you were right. Unbelievable. Gaddhafi and his clan are such scum. http://www.vancouversun.com/news/Military+aircraft+attack+Libya+crowds+Jazeera/4320457/story.html LONDON - Military aircraft attacked crowds of anti-government protesters in the Libyan capital Tripoli on Monday, Al Jazeera television said. A Libyan man, Soula al-Balaazi, who said he was an opposition activist, told the network by telephone that Libyan air force warplanes had bombed "some locations in Tripoli". He said he was talking from a suburb of Tripoli. No independent verification of the report was immediately available. An analyst for London-based consultancy Control Risks said the use of military aircraft on his own people indicated the end was approaching for Moammar Gadhafi. "These really seem to be last, desperate acts. If you're bombing your own capital, it's really hard to see how you can survive, " said Julien Barnes-Dacey, Control Risks' Middle East analyst. "But I think Gaddafi is going to put up a fight. I think the rumours of him fleeing to Venezuela are going to prove wide of the mark. In Libya more than any other country in the region, there is the prospect of serious violence and outright conflict." British Foreign Secretary William Hague said earlier that Gaddafi might be heading for Venezuela, but a senior government source in Caracas denied that.
It looks like the it is the beginning of the end for Gadafi with members of his own government and military resigning or refusing to fight. Unfortunately based on the rhetoric from his son this could be a blood bath before his regime is done.
More news from Libya: Two Libyan fighter pilots defect, fly to Malta Reuters) - Two Libyan Air Force fighter pilots defected on Monday and flew their jets to Malta where they told authorities they had been ordered to bomb protesters, Maltese government officials said. They said the two pilots, both colonels, took off from a base near Tripoli. One of them has requested political asylum. The pilots are being questioned by the Maltese police. The two said they decided to fly to Malta after being ordered to bomb anti-government protesters in Libya's second largest city of Benghazi, the sources said. Police were also questioning seven passengers who landed in European Union member state Malta from Libya on board two French-registered helicopters. The government sources said the helicopters left Libya without authorization by the Libyan aviation authorities and that only one of the seven passengers -- who say they are French citizens -- had a passport. A French Foreign Ministry spokesman could not immediately confirm the information as it was still being verified. The four-decade rule of Libyan leader Muammar Gaddafi has been shaken by days of violent protests which reached the capital Tripoli for the first time on Monday. http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/02/21/us-libya-protests-malta-idUSTRE71K52R20110221
While it is great news that these guys defected, I am a bit concerned about what that means for Malta, an island I am very familiar with. They have no army to speak of and if Gaddhafi goes even more crazy, it could become unpleasant. The other issue Malta will have to face even more than it already has is that they will become overrun with refugees sooner or later.
It's not just helicopters. There has literally been air strikes ordered for jets. In fact, two jet pilots flew to Malta and defected because they didn't want to bomb Libyan citizens. It's ridiculous. Gaddafi should die. http://blogs.aljazeera.net/middle-east/2011/02/17/live-blog-libya
If he tries to make a move on Malta, it gives the rest of the world a reason to intervene and take him out. I think that would be the stupidest thing he could do at this point.
It appears that the military is splitting in to different factions over this. Hopefully more will side with the protesters and Qaddafi will have to get out soon.
I agree, but one never knows what this crazy guy might do...kind of like a crazy shooter who knows he is going to die anyway. Small chance, fortunately.
