I don't have the answer. Anyone else wanna take a stab? Obviously it's too late for an immediate solution. If you're arguing that the US would not be better off with a sympathetic government then I ask why not? (is that what you're implying?...not sure) Maybe the US would be forced to keep a larger presence in Iraq. Or simply let Israel fend for themselves which we all know means nuclear.
Actually, Carl, you painted a pretty viable picture in your previous posts. As I looked back you have been asking 'what do you propose'. So far yours is as hopefull as can see it. I'm worried about the worse case.
One answer, it seems, is what the U.S. is reported to have been working toward right now (see article below summarizing some of the work done by the White House and State Department during the course of the last week or so): Engage with all groups in Egypt, inlcuding both secular and religious ones (and including the Muslim Brotherhood). This way, you have a better chance of having a working relationship with a larger set of the population and political factions and a better chance of ending up with a government that not only conducts majoritairan elections but also respects liberal values (such as the respecting the freedom of religious miniorities). From the reports, even among the religious groups like the Brotherhood, there are a good number of those who are sufficiently liberal-minded (or practical) and won't insist on going the way of Iran or Taliban Afghanistan. There will be some "extremists" who absolutely hate the U.S. and will insist on some strict repressive form of Islamic theocracy be imposed on a country with a significant number of Christians and (more or less) secular people, but at least you should try to minimize the number of these hold-outs with whom you cannot work. In Egypt, at least, the numbers should work out against theocracy (reports indicate that the U.S. is more worried about the possible rise of theocracy in Yemen, where the breakdown of political/religious factions is different than that of Egypt). In any case, it's proba http://www.theatlantic.com/politics...hite-house-approached-egyptian-turmoil/70646/
Funny to see how there are some who always talk about a lack of democracy in the Middle East, but are now expressing reservations when millions of Egyptians are about to topple a 30 yr old dictatorship, because they're afraid of what might come next and how it might inconvenience the West and Israel. It's a good thing that the future of Egypt looks to be in the hands of the Egyptian people, and not Tel Aviv or any western capital anymore.
Who, exactly? The only person who I think is clearly playing it both ways is you (anti-Iranian opposition, pro-Egyptian opposition).
http://www.cnn.com/2011/WORLD/africa/02/02/egypt.journalists.attacked/index.html?hpt=C1 Pro-Mubarak demonstrators attack journalists (CNN) -- Demonstrators who appear to support Egyptian President Hosni Mubarak are targeting journalists for attacks on the streets of Cairo. A Belgian reporter on Wednesday was arrested, beaten and accused of being a spy by men supporting the Mubarak regime in the central Cairo neighborhood of Choubra, according to one news media watchdog group. An Egyptian reporter was found severely beaten several hours after a group of men seized him in Tahrir Square, according to his news organization. Journalists from the BBC, ABC News and CNN were also attacked. Among them were CNN's Anderson Cooper and Hala Gorani. The attacks have drawn condemnation from advocacy groups for journalists, one of which accused the Egyptian government of being behind the attacks. "The Egyptian government is employing a strategy of eliminating witnesses to their actions," said Mohamed Abdel Dayem, Middle East and North Africa program coordinator for the Committee to Protect Journalists. "The government has resorted to blanket censorship, intimidation, and today a series of deliberate attacks on journalists carried out by pro-government mobs." Cooper said he was hit on the head by a pro-Mubarak demonstrator. Gorani said she was threatened after getting caught in a stampede of men riding on camels and horses Wednesday morning. "I got slammed against the gates and was threatened by one of the pro-Mubarak protesters who was ... telling me to 'get out, get out!' and saying it very close to my face," Gorani said. "The pro-Mubaraks, whoever they are, whoever sent them, are being threatening toward camera crews, journalists, anybody who looks like they may be onlookers. Some of the elements there are rather thuggish and they seem to be intent on causing trouble." Several hours later, Cooper said he, CNN producer MaryAnne Fox and a cameraman were attacked by pro-Mubarak supporters in front of the Egyptian Museum. At the time, Cooper said, the three journalists were trying to reach a "no-man's land" between the demonstrators against Egyptian President Hosni Mubarak's regime and the counter-demonstrators. "We never got that far. We were set upon by pro-Mubarak supporters punching us in the head," Cooper said. "We turned around and start to walk just calmly. The crowd kept growing, kept throwing more punches, kicks, trying to grab us." "It was pandemonium," Cooper said. "Suddenly a young man would come up, look at you and then punch you right in the face. You know the instinct is to try to punch back or push back but that just inflames the crowd more." "All we could do was to just try to walk as quickly as possible, stay together and seek a safe location," Cooper said. Other journalists who were attacked fared worse. Among them was Al-Arabiya correspondent Ahmed Abdullah, who went missing for three hours Wednesday. His editor confirmed late Wednesday that Abdullah had been found and sent to a hospital to be treated for injuries he suffered when his captors beat him. In a prepared statement, Jean-Francois Juillard, secretary-general of Reporters Without Borders said "the use of violence against media personnel is especially shocking." "These attacks seem to have been acts of revenge against the international media for relaying the protests calling for President Mubarak's resigning," Juillard said. "We urge the international community to react strongly to these excesses. And we remind the Egyptian government that it has a duty to apply the law and to urgently restore security for everyone, including media personnel. In a separate statement, Reporters Without Borders called for the immediate release of Serge Dumont, a Belgian correspondent for several European publications, including Le Soir in his home country. The statement included a partial transcript of a telephone conversation Dumont had with Le Soir editors after he was arrested: "I was hit several times in the face," said Dumont, according to the transcript. "They claimed I was pro-Baradei." Mohamed ElBaradei, the Nobel laureate and former head of the International Atomic Energy Agency, is one of several opposition figures whose names surface when protesters talk about possible future leaders of Egypt. Dumont, according to the transcript, said he was taken to a military barracks outside Cairo and given a glass of water from the Nile River and told by his captors that they wanted him to drink it and get diarrhea. "I am being guarded by two soldiers with Kalashnikovs (rifles) and bayonets," said Dumont, according to the transcript. "They say I will be taken before the intelligence services. They say I am a spy."
Plenty of people in this thread and the 'do you support democracy' thread have voiced that sentiment either explicitly or implicitly. Also, wasn't I right about Iran? You and others like you thought there was going to be some sort of revolution, but it was actually a relatively small segment of society (upper and upper-middle class, disaffected intellectuals, and university students) violently protesting (unlike the protesters in Egypt who have been peacefully protesting) because they lost an election. The two situations are different, apples and oranges, which is why one is on the verge of success and the other failed miserably.
Trust me you'll be fine, I already talked to my friends in Syria and they said everything is fine Although I wish something will happen so we can get rid of our dictator.
No, actually you were rather wrong at the time about Iran, multiple times - First you said there was no evidence at all that there was fraud... then you switched to the tack that whatever evidence there was of fraud was false and "conjecture", based on your expertise in Farsi & polling, I guess... then when even the ayatollahs were forced to order a recount...you argued it was only because of the "violent" rioters, who according to you, pretty much deserved what they got..... ...then you started referring to Palestine and sort of faded away as the crackdown became more violent and offensive. .....and as a revival you started a rather embarrassing thread about the Republic of Gabon of all places . . . http://bbs.clutchfans.net/showthread.php?t=174198&highlight=kwame . . . can you give me an update on that sit rep without googling...or was your concern for that situation less than genuine? I mean do I have to start citing pro-Mubarak election results? My question to you basically is why are you so credulous of Iranian theocrat dictator elections and incredulous of Egyptian secular dictator elections - which have shown wide-spread pro Mubarak sentiment? Because of the many things that are arguable, your deferral to the Iranian election results as told to you by Ahmad's party/ruling theocracy, is definitely not arguable. Why isn't Hosni due the same courtesy from you?
Why would protesters pick up guns and become violent after 6 days of peaceful protest that seemed to be working? does not pass the smell test
Does anyone else find the presence of camels and horses among the pro-Mubarak crowd to be the strangest aspect of today? I mean, where do they find these amateur calvary in the 21st century? And who goes to a demonstration with his horse or camel?
I always maintained the position that there was no real evidence of fraud. The so-called "evidence" that was being presented was nothing more than speculation and conjecture. Here are a couple of links that demonstrate that the election in Iran was legitimate: http://www.iranaffairs.com/files/iranian-election.pdf www.raceforiran.com <---- Read all their entries. Despite you labeling Iran as a theocratic dictatorship, Iran doesn't have a history of fraudulent elections in the post-revolutionary era, however, Egypt does. Iran has had, according to the links above, 25 major elections in the past 30 years or so, the 2009 election was the only one ever really disputed. By comparing Iran's history of democracy to Egypt's history of autocracy, you're demonstrating how facile, simplistic, and narrow your view of the situation is. You're comparing apples and oranges. Also, if you read my last post in that Iran thread, I correctly said that the protests would die down due to a combination of protesters not representing majority sentiment and due to government repression. I was right. There's not going to be a coup or any regime change in Iran, but there is going to be one in Egypt. One movement did not have legitimacy while the other does. That's why one failed and the other is on the cusp of success.
Don't count it. Obama will split the baby and tried to please Israel who is very pleased with Mubarak. Truth be told I think maybe Obama hopes he can survive, too.
They have horses and camels because they aren't actually there to protest. The theory is that Mubarak is sending them to cause fear among the protesters/general population, and to silence any non state TV reports. If the people are afraid that continued protests will lead to a blood bath they may be willing to accept the status quo, and if Egyptian state TV is the only source of information then Mubarak controls what is released to the public. There are reports that Mubarak supporters have been found with police ID's, that some of them work for state owned companies and were sent by their jobs, and that they are being bussed in with weapons. There is also video of a pro-Mubarak rally with cops being carried on peoples shoulders chanting pro-Mubarak stuff.
