and it took the French until the 5th Republic to get the democracy thing down; freedom can be messy, but it's ultimately better than the alternative.
we don't belong in mideast politics. yet, it seems to be our primary responsibility. all this is setting up another mideast war with Israel (and us). we're too afraid what will happen if we remove ourselves from the situation. therefore, we try to control the situation to suit our needs. now, we're caught between a people who want freedom (which will likely lead to an Islamist state unfriendly to Israel) or supporting the dictator while suppressing freedom. fine situation we are in here.
That would be nice but unrealistic. He could just make a generic meaningless speech that does not task Mubarak with creating democracy in Egypt. I fully appreciate those things. I'm relaying what Egyptians think now, and what is being used as a rallying call now: Obama wants Mubarak to stay a little while longer to ensure/prioritize Israel and America's safety. Anything short of Mubarak leaving is tacit support of Mubarak. Anything else we've already seen in the past 30 years. The will of the Egyptian people is for Mubarak to leave. The will of Obama is for the current government to implement serious reforms. These are diametrically opposed ideas. Again I'm going to have to disagree. Obama and Hillary and Biden all indicated that Mubarak is not leaving immediately, which is a complete disagreement with the will of the Egyptian people. I'll give you an analogy that an Egyptian guy gave me today. Egypt is a woman, and Mubarak is a rapist. Mubarak has raped Egypt. For 30 years. Now the charge for rape is to go to jail. Obama is the friend of the rapist convincing the victim not to press charges and just let this 30-year rapist apologize and become a sweet person to the victim. Maybe even father the resulting child from the rape. But in reality, no rape victim can even look at a rapist for one second, and certainly the interests of his friend is not a valid reason to do so.
My sense from hearing the comments on the Sunday shows from Hilary Clinton is that the U.S.'s take on Mubarak is "If he dies, he dies." I don't think they particulary want him to stay on (even for a "transitional period) but they understand that there is little the U.S. can do to force Mubarak out and little they can do to keep him in power. These things are mostly up to how the events play out in Egypt among the protesters, the military, and Mubarak himself. The U.S. can provide subtle hints and pressures, but they can't control the outcome of events in Egypt any more than they can control the outcome of an election in South Korea. Hell, even full on guns blazing "regime change" efforts in Iraq and Afghanistan have not turned out as the U.S. government expected when they went in. Thus, Hilary's (rather evasive) talk of "we are on the side of the Egyptian people" when asked if the U.S. is on the side of the protesters or Mubarak. Who are the Egypitan people? Whoever comes out on top at the end fo the process, I guess. I do agree the U.S. doesn't want something potentially volitile to happen and would prefer a smooth transition. It seems the more likely scenario they want (or anticipate) is some sort of transitional government that will satisfy the Egyptian public for the moment (most likely, such a government will have to be without Mubarak), and an election within the next year or so.
you have to understand, guys like texxx believe in keeping power in the powerful families of this country. he believes bush would handle this situation because of pedigree. that's what they truly believe and its sad. addressing their concerns, its amazing that the war hawks on terror want to now dump an ally. when this guy was supporting extraordinary renditions I wonder where they stood on democracy in egypt.
bigtexxx 2003 = Democracy for everyone! even at the point of a gun bigtexxx 2011 = Democracy isn't for everyone! (just those educated enough to appreciate it)
How is that unrealistic when what happened to Suharto as a historical fact? When massive protests were breaking out against Suharto Bill Clinton made very similar statements to Obama. Once Suharto resigned Indonesia didn't become suddenly anti-America and the US didn't quit strategic, trade and aid relationships with Indonesia. While this may be what Egyptians think I would say that is reading way more into Obama's and other's statements. Also if you are just relaying then do you agree with what they are saying? As Carl Herrera noted Obama, Hillary and Biden don't really have a say in that. They are acknowledging the reality of the moment that Mubarak is still in charge and they don;t want to be seen as interfering in Egyptian affairs by calling for regime change. What you seem to be asking for them to intervene by advocating regime change. As you say anything short of Mubarak leaving is tacit support of Mubarak. That is an absolutist statement that ignores the complexities of the situation. Also wouldn't that mean that you wouldn't be satisfied if Obama made a complete meaningless statement or nothing? Frankly that is an ill informed analogy.
Let's be a little fair here. I don't think anyone in this thread advocates the oppression of the Egyptian people. I just don't think anyone wants a return to the kind of hostility that existed pre-Sadat. I've been to Egypt many times and really appreciated the company there. I was bombarded with a lot of very candid political opinion regarding Israel / the US / terrorism / Sudan / etc, and I very much have a great deal of sympathy for what is happening there. I don't get to have the kind of discussions I had there very often in the US or Israel and I don't underestimate the intelligence or the awareness of the people there. But I also live a few hours from the Egyptian border and know how fragile what little peace in the Middle East exists and it's not unreasonable to be concerned about the outcome of that changing for the worst. I don't often agree with BigTexxx and Basso about a lot of things, but I think they've contributed to the discussion here in a reasonable way, and I've found the last few threads on here to be a refreshing change. Let's try to keep on topic and not let the thread break down. Everyone is offering a lot to this and I'm enjoying the lack of sarcasm.
I think we just have to agree to disagree here. My only closing remark is that I feel, maybe wrongly, that you're ignoring the gravity of the problem for the Egyptian people perhaps because you have not been in touch with people who have suffered under his regime? I'm not even Egyptian, and every day that passes I am angered that he is still there. It's time. It's over. These are humans and they should get what they want, EXACTLY like you have what you want. They shouldn't suffer another day for the comfort of someone else.
Here's a photo courtesy BBC: I'm interested what kind of "transition" the masses could stomach. What if Mubarak said: * I will transition out of the top position by ___ (some date within the next few months). * My new VP will take over until Sept. elections can be held. * The VP can run for the top position in Sept., but I, Mubarak, will not. * My new cabinet will work with the UN to ensure fair elections for all major positions in Sept. Radical, but maybe possible. If the masses wouldn't accept that, I don't know what else they can get. You can't have the guy just walk out of office and "see what happens," can you? Mathloom: thoughts?
this is no different (from a US perspective) of letting an outdated coach or executive in the business world walk away with respect. sometimes that coach doesn't want to go, but in the end, everyone tries to be graceful. so and so retires with a statement of "its time for me to enjoy my family" organization "we thank so and so for their service"
After Hosni Mubarak retires from coaching, I'd love to see him join JVG on the ESPN NBA broadcasts. He's gotta be better than Mark Jackson, right?
<iframe title="YouTube video player" class="youtube-player" type="text/html" width="640" height="390" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/aWcKewmyh_o" frameborder="0" allowFullScreen></iframe> This is the sort of thing that makes a bad situation a great deal worse.
