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Les wishing to stay competitive seemingly supported by the responses here

Discussion in 'Houston Rockets: Game Action & Roster Moves' started by meh, Apr 20, 2012.

  1. meh

    meh Contributing Member

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    I'm actually quite surprised at the venom on this board during this 6 game losing streak, basically asking heads to roll from bench player Patterson to owner Les Alexander. Because it seem to be opposite of what I expected from Rockets fans. Which is, winning isn't a big deal unless it leads to championship.

    If it's true that Rockets fans want a contender or tank, then going from probable 1st round exit to barely lottery pick seem like a lateral move. That the response to should be "meh." Yet it seems that fans here do seem to care about a low playoff seed. That we root for marginal success. If we dont, then there would be no need to get extra bitter right now than 2 weeks ago. After all, we weren't going anywhere then. And we're not going anywhere now. Long term future of the Rockets is about the same either way. Possible exposure to the playoffs balanced by an extra pick in the 12-14 range.

    Anyway, not saying I agree with Les' methods, as I've called for tanking from the moment Yao went down against the Lakers 3 years ago. But perhaps he's not totally idiotic in thinking that fans still want the team to win, even if it's not the championship.
     
  2. Rockets Jones

    Rockets Jones Member

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    You seem to forget the point that we were looking good, at one point a 6th seed and beating good teams (on the road). There's no reason to all of a sudden change that, i.e. losing. If we had kept losing from the beginning of the season and traded some guys for picks, I would've just been happy with the whole ride getting a win here and there. Now we are expected to win and we choke, 6 games in a row and not playing up to our potential. That's why we want to win now, nobody wants to be a 8 seed but rather than another 14th pick!!
     
  3. JuanValdez

    JuanValdez Contributing Member

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    I also wanted to tank from the start. The argument for not tanking -- one I can appreciate, though I didn't quite subscribe to -- was that we would gain some cachet by being a playoff team. A free agent would pause and consider signing with the Rockets because they're already a playoff team and maybe could be a contender with his help. A guy like Pau Gasol might not throw a hissy fit when he gets traded to the Rockets because, hey, it's a playoff team already and maybe with someone like him in the middle, maybe they could be special.

    But, we lost that cachet. Not only do we not profit from the cachet of being a playoff team, we get to carry the label of being collossal chokers, being a 6th seed and then losing a string of crucial games to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory.

    So, no it's not merely going from picking 15th to 14th. It's not merely going from a .550 squad to a .525 squad. The Rockets' reputation just took an enormous hit that will effect them in a very tangible way this coming offseason, and one that will especially matter to their target market of young proven veteran players they want to be able to attract.

    They could have gone another way. They could have surrendered that winning-club reputation voluntarily to go after rookies instead. Both approaches have potential for success. But, they've ended up with neither -- they've fallen between two stools. They have neither the picks for high-powered rookies, nor the reputation for high-powered free agents.

    That's why I'm mad about it. Tanking is as easy as falling off a log. They tried this other thing, to make the playoffs and develop a reputation as a rising team where a franchise player can plug in and find great success. And they failed. In a big and humiliating way.
     
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  4. Medicine N Music

    Medicine N Music Contributing Member
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    Tanking is very stupid, especially for this team. We have way too many decent players. Even if we pawned off many players, we still wouldn't be the worst 5 teams in the league, so what's the point? We would be getting mid lottery talent, which again, isn't really all that great. How about the Bobcats? They've been bad for years and are still bad. They have nobody on their team that's a star and they only have a 25% chance to get Anthony Davis this year.

    For our team, we have too many pieces RIGHT NOW that have potential. Patterson has been playing hurt all year. He may come back next year and be a 15/9/1.5 guy with above average defense. He has pretty good timing on blocked shots, but you can't really judge his prowess in this department because he couldn't jump all year. What about Donuts? Every knows that he has great potential. How about Morris? Year, clear out some people and he'll get playing time.

    What I would do is trade Scola, Martin, and Budinger for some picks, or get whatever you can. Moving up the draft board is hard, no doubt. However, we can probably get an early-mid lottery player for Lowry + 13th + 17th pick. I would also work out a deal to get OJ Mayo. He was a star in the making averaging 18 points on 45% FG and 37% 3s. For whatever reason, his coach didn't like him and he became a bench player. Don't tell me about his "first step" or lack of first step. He was good in isolation situations in his first two years.

    1) Trade Lowry + 2 first rounders for Beal OR Lowry for Jeremy Lamb
    2) Sign Dragic
    3) Trade Scola + Budinger for picks or a bag of chips
    4) Sign and Trade Lee + Dalmebert for Asik + fillers
    5) If number 4 is possible, Sign and Trade Martin for Mayo + Fillers

    Dragic/Draft Pick
    Mayo/Beal or Lamb
    Parsons/Morris
    Patterson/Donuts
    Asik/Camby

    You have 3 potential stars in group Mayo, Beal/Lamb, and Donuts and 3 potential guys in Patterson, Morris, and Asik.
     
  5. RV6

    RV6 Contributing Member

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    Fans are full of it when they say the playoffs didnt matter. Most here would be sitting in front of the TV when the playoffs start, whether the Rockets are a #1 or #8 seed. We may not believe much will happen, but we want to. We want to see them do well and play above expectations.
     
  6. MadMax

    MadMax Contributing Member

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    I've said all year long: I can't root against them in any game....and I get disappointed when they lose. But...it's very easy for me to find the silver lining when they come up short given where they are from a big picture viewpoint.
     
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  7. rimbaud

    rimbaud Contributing Member
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    So you think tanking is stupid but then list thebways you want to improve...by tanking?

    When I want the Rockets to tank I don't just mean they should suck and be terrible, I mean they shouldndo everything more for the long term - trade average, older players for younger guys and/or draft picks. Even if they were still just the 5th worst team next year, that could mean a world of difference for player potential and maybe they have new players on the team with upside instead of rosternwith a hugelymlimited (and obvious) ceiling.

    I do think Parsons has long-term potential and that surprises me. His combination ofndefense, intelligence, handles, and signs of shooting ability have led me to feel he could be an all-around solid to high level role player non a contender. I don't see that potential with any of the other younger guys (not counting Lowry and Dragic because they are more established).

    So what else is there? Nothing. It is obvious and they need to do something. I hardly watch games anymore and when I do it is with an apathetic eye and lack of surprise when they lose. The win streak was a surprise and gave some enjoyment, but overall I never bought into the home court advantage or first round upset thing.

    Blow it up. Be smart about it. This organization is supposedly not the Wizards or Bobcats or Warriors. Going to the deep end of the lottery should be limited and smart and be more like Chicago or Seattle/OKC or Utah or Denver.
     
  8. roxallways

    roxallways Member
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    The pathetic reality about this season is if the Rox were going to tank and build for the future, they should have done it after the Gasol trade fell through. At the beginning of the season, It was hard to be too excited about the team because ultimately you know they were not horrible but they weren't good enough to be legit. Then they had to go and play well against top teams in the league to further tease the fans into thinking they had an outside chance to make some noise in the playoffs. Then the wet their pants down the stretch over the last 6 games. EXTREMELY frustrating season. If the Rox don't make a definitive move in the off season (big trade, signing, draft pick, or finally decide to tank) they think the attendance and TV ratings were low this year? The Rox will be an absolute after thought and Les will finally have to consider selling the team because he'll start losing a lot of money.
     
  9. ima_drummer2k

    ima_drummer2k Contributing Member

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    Exactly. There's a difference between tanking and rebuilding. Tanking is trying to lose on purpose. Rebuilding is exactly what you said - trade average, older players for younger guys and/or draft picks. That's not the same as trying to lose games on purpose in order to get a few extra ping-pong balls.
     
  10. rocketsmetalspd

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    Instead of Scola put Patterson in your number 3 trade scenario
     
  11. dachuda86

    dachuda86 Member

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    OP,

    I think you're reading the situation completely wrong. Fans aren't mad all of a sudden. This failure is just a tipping point. We've been frustrated for a long time. This season looked to be a pleasant surprise, and with two bigs, and the back court clicking, we thought we'd have a good playoff run and be a darkhorse contender... much better than last year obviously. Still, this didn't pan out. No, instead it turned into a nightmare, and we're tired of watching this garbage. We're tired of having our hopes led on. We're tired of being Charlie Brown and having the football pulled out of the way and falling on our ass. We're tired of disappointment.

    You must understand, that this roller coaster of emotions has been teasing us forever. Ever since we got rid of the good unis and started a new era of suckage in the late 90s and early 2000s. Ever since Yao and Tmac came, only to crap out because believe it or not: teams need role players. Later on, we were sold on this idea from a math genius, not a basketball genius, that we can spend no money and somehow compete. Well, looking at how that worked out, and the fact that our team is completely uninteresting, I'd say it worked out great...

    Overall, that loss to the nuggets was the tipping point for me and many other fans. We are sick of watching a team build our hopes up and profit, while we get screwed.

    So in turn, I and many others, loyal fans who loyal enough to be posting on a f'ing message board about this crap team, are done buying into Les, Morey and the overall crap product. We are done buying tickets. We are done supporting the fiction put out from the Rockets marketing office. We are done with the Rockets as they stand.
     
  12. ipaman

    ipaman Contributing Member

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    you play to win the game?
     
  13. Medicine N Music

    Medicine N Music Contributing Member
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    What I wrote is definitely not tanking. First, Asik/Camby is comparable to Camby/Dalembert, and it's even better for the long term, as Asik has better defensive potential than Dalembert. As for the PF situation, a well rested, well rehabed Patterson is better than Scola. When you add in Donuts, you get the offensive arsenal that Patterson is lacking. For our SF rotation, an extra year for Parsons + Morris will definitely help. When you look at the SG spot, Mayo is a plus defender, and is also a guy that can get you 20 points per night while being the go to guy in the 4th. We do not currently have a guy like that. Bradley Beal is basically a better shooter than Gordon, although not as good with the first step. For the PG position, I'm fine with Dragic + a vet or draft pick.

    So basically, we have either upgraded, or stayed the same in every single position. This is not tanking. This is upgrading to younger, better potential talent. If any of our players blow up, we have quite a nice, and deep team.
     
  14. StevieCrossover

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    Well it seems the Rockets played hard. It just seems that in the 4th quarter, they run out of gas these past couple of games. Hmm we just need the off season and regroup. Hopefully the Rockets can make the play-offs. Chances are looking slimmer with every loss.
     
  15. rpr52121

    rpr52121 Sober Fan
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    What the Rockets fans are truly begging for is hope.

    Right now they see none. They see a team and organization that is dead in the water and that has not changed at all really in the past 3 years. They see no hope of a young player who will revitalize this team though the draft. They see no hope of amazing coach and staff who can build up players. They see no hope of the players on the team turning consistent all-stars much less star players. They see no hope of a star deciding to come to the Rockets.

    The Rockets organization's goal of being competitive is misguided. You don't sell seats by being competitive. You sell seats buy selling hope. The level of play is by product. To make matters worse, over the past 15 years most Rockets fans feel the organization sold them false hopes and promises, so now they don't believe in the organization, whether that is the coach, GM, owner, scouts, medical staff, or whomever.

    That is the reason for this backlash. A total fresh start, however radical, has the chance for some sort of hope. And that is what Rockets fans are craving for.
     
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  16. Relentless

    Relentless Member

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    Blow it up. The experiment failed.

    Go Rockets
     
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  17. dachuda86

    dachuda86 Member

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    Go Rockets! Blow it UP!!!!
     
  18. DCkid

    DCkid Contributing Member

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    not in the NBA...it makes for a pretty disgusting product overall
     
  19. leebigez

    leebigez Contributing Member

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    Just because you play young guys doesn't mean you're tanking. Denver just traded nene for mcgee but they're still in it. Utah traded williams and they're still in the playoff hunt. If hornets wouldn't have lost gordon for the entire season and okefor for most of it,they would be around .500. I can't speak for everyone, but I wanted to see hill,patterson,lee,williams,and thabeet get a lot of minutes this year. Even if they came up short,at least they would've had valuable experience going forward. Morey decided to keep martin,scola, and dalembert as the vets to push the team over the top. It looks like they will miss the playoffs and those young guys are playing somewhere else for the most part. we really don't know anymore about patterson as we did as a rookie. Ideally, I would've like them to dump scola and trade martin for an expiring for flexibility. That way williams and lee can play the 2, patterson and hill can play the 4. Its didn't happen, of well,here comes the 14th pick again
     
  20. Old Man Rock

    Old Man Rock Contributing Member

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    Finally someone gets it!!!!!

    Of course we want to win. But when we can;t we want to at least believe we are doing what it takes to make that happen in the not so distant future. When Yao came back from his injury the last time everyone was excited. We didn't know what would happen but we had that something good might. Then he got injured the last time and everyone was devastated. At that point we lost hope. We saw no immediate future.

    At that point the Rockets could have scrapped it. They could have started the rebuilding. Instead they throw a bunch of draft picks and Assets for players like TWill and Thabeet. Okay I get it kind of. We had a scrappy team and a good coach. And they played their heart out.

    But but after the second lottery this team was another fail and we should have started the rebuilding now. A playoff visit wasn;t going to give us new hope most on here knew we were missing the pieces to win big.

    I watch us and our stupid owner who is more worried about the bottom line and compare it to Paul Allen and the Blazers. He was smart enough to see his team was not going nowhere. They had been the 4th 5th and 6th seed the last three years and they probably could have made the playoffs again. But the playoffs weren't good enough for allen. He cleaned house and now they have plentypf cap space two early firsts and two early seconds. If the steal Dragic from us we will be screwed. But even if they don't the have something we don't hope. Please Les stop thinking this team can do something. Stop thinking Dwight howard wants to play here! Please give us some hope!
     

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