I never said anything about short and unproductive careers. I just think 10-12 years in the league is when they'll be real good players. To me that is a long career, especially for a guard. I'm just saying that relatively short guards who rely on their athleticism shouldn't be expected to a career like Kareem, Barkley, Olajuwon, and so on and so one. How many top level guards around 6'3" and under are still All-Stars after 12 years in the league. You would be hard pressed to find one. Look at Isiah, I believe his last All-Star appearance was in 1992, 11 years after he was drafted. The very next season, you could see that Isiah was on his last legs. Kevin Johnson drafted in 1987. His injury plagued 1997 season when he put a scare in Seattle in the 1st round was the last time one could say he could dominate a game. The real question is: why even bring this up? What difference does 10 years of a productive career gone make to us now? If Francis has 10 all star calliber years and then his quickness is gone, GREAT! We're only in year 3 now which means 7 to go. One difference, and I think it is significant, is that the concept of "strength and conditioning" didn't exist when Thomas was in the league and was only in its infancy when Johnson was playing as a veteran. These guys worked out, but neither of them had the type of specific science dedicated to keeping them fit and quick that guys like Iverson and Francis have today. ------------------ How the hell should I know why God would allow the Holocaust. I don't even know how the electric can opener works. - from Hannah and Her Sisters
Here's an idea, Achebe. Why don't you and some of your other six-figure buddies get together, buy the team from Les, and wine-dine-and-sign Webber. That way, you get to open the wallet whenever you want to. Then you can come back to cc.net (you can use the alias "Nurse Rocket" or something like that) and leak the really good stuff to us. I will say one thing in favor of the pro-Webber side of this debate. I remember when the Lakers jettisoned damn near everyone on their roster who was making a significant salary, in order to clear enough room to sign Shaq away from the Magic, for what was then the most fantastic sum ever spent on anyone other than Michael Jordan. I remember thinking that the Lakers had screwed themselves because they'd be Shaq-and-the-scrubs. But as soon as Shaq was there, bandwagoners like Rick Fox came knocking on the door because they thought they could win a championship with Big Heraclitus, or whatever he was calling himself back then. I realize Webber isn't Shaq, but I do think there's a case to be made that having him on the team would make it much easier for us to lure good role players in the next year or two. [This message has been edited by Will (edited July 01, 2001).]
Awwww.... TheFreak, I'm sorry. I didn't mean to offend you. I usually glance over the 'anti-Rockets' posters' text. People that post 'I hope that the Rockets trade away all of their picks' just to ruin you guys' days in a fanatic discussion of 'trading up' don't keep my focus for too long. Then we actually agree. The only objective thing to go on then, is performance. OOOOPS! Webber wins! The Rockets pursue FAs to improve their team. When the Rockets pursued McDyess and Pippen at the same time, it had nothing to do w/ some 1-2 year 'window'. Oh I agree it's not an all-star team. Dream's the only all-star on the team, and he's close to retirement. We gotta get some of those All-Stars though! Is that what Jeff's thread argues? Jeff agrees we need Webber? He'd be just the All-Star to build around! Maybe in a few years Stevie will be an All-Star too! That'd be cool! I wasn't arguing that Morris's contract breaks the bank for the team, I was actually more concerned that Les is even active in decisions. I realize that it's naive to think otherwise... but I'd like to think that the owner of the team that I like... a team that's loosing money b/c you and Jeff don't go to basketball games, a team that's scared of overruns on the arena, I would like to think that that owner wouldn't be involved in too many of the decisions. That's homerism. ------------------ calling powdered toast man girl you looks good won't you mock that draft up?!
So Doc Rocket is Les Alexander??? Thanks Will! I definitely agree that Les has the right to approve or disapprove anything he wants... that's why I said that I love the fact that employees have to approve expenses... etc. But (everyone has a big but Will, let's talk about your big but), I'd rather that my favorite team's owner was less fiscally responsible. ------------------ calling powdered toast man girl you looks good won't you mock that draft up?!
Not really. Clutch and Doc Rocket have both posted that the team was really high on Webber. Something changed, but I'm trying to figure out if it is a) Webber hinted 'no' -or- b) Les said 'no'. The Rockets need to play with their calculators a bit more. I believe that we calculated w/o trading away anyone and renouncing Hakeem... that there'd be 16-18 million dollars (assuming a 43 million dollar cap) with which to play with. If you sign Webber... there's plenty of money to resign Moochie. If Dream doesn't rise to Barkleyean greatness by signing for a million dollars, I'll still find it in my heart to root like a madman for him elsewhere. Jeff, do you know the status of Dream's free agency? Does it sound as if it will be difficult to resign him w/ or w/o Webber? BTW, I was kidding about that 'you do not go to the games' stab... kinda
Because I enjoy the discussion Achebe, I'll go ahead and overlook your inability to take (or get) a joke, as well as the personal shots, to respond to some of what you said. I said: I sure wish people would stop bringing up the "but Webber and Francis are friends!" argument to try to refute chemistry concerns. We're talking about on-court chemistry here. I'm sure 80% of the NBA are "friends" with each other. That says nothing about on-court chemistry. Drexler and Barkley are very close friends -- on the court they had serious problems playing together. Mobley and Francis are perhaps too good of friends, if that's possible, and it shows on the court with favoritism at times. The fact that players may be friends is not relevant. You said: Then we actually agree. The only objective thing to go on then, is performance. OOOOPS! Webber wins! You're just not getting my and others' concerns about chemistry. We DO NOT agree, you're wrong. You cannot just go on "performance". Hey, Barkley's a great rebounder and scorer, let's add him to the team, it's a no-brainer....(after Barkley gets here)...what, Barkley likes to post up in the same spot as Hakeem? Geez, Barkley's stats didn't tell me that! Well, even though the Barkley thing didn't quite work out too well...Hey, that Pippen guy had some amazing stats in Chicago, let's get him!...(after Pippen gets here)...What, Pippen's strength isn't spot-up shooting? He can't be effective playing with Hakeem and Barkley in a post-up offense? But what about those great numbers he put up! Those are just two examples from our own team in the past few years. Why don't you tell me what the problem was in those two situations? All those guys liked each other, right? They all got along. They all put up good numbers, right? Doesn't that automatically mean that they will mesh together on the court? Doesn't that automatically mean that their styles compliment each other? NO. I'm sure acquiring Karl Malone might improve our team, let's get him! Since the Rockets only make moves to "improve their team", this would make sense, wouldn't it? Money is never an issue, right? The ages of the players they look at doesn't matter either, right? Whether or not the players abilities compliment their existing team also wouldn't be a consideration either, right? The fact that you're willing to build the team around a 9-year veteran may just explain our differences of opinion. I think that would be stupid. We have 3 great young players to build around. I'd rather add guys that are going to get out of the way and compliment what they do, rather than bring in a 9-year vet and make him the new center of attention. I specifically like Taylor because he is going to spread the floor and open the lanes for those 3 guys, and because he's only 24, and because he's already got a year in our system. That's on-court chemistry--stats aren't, and friendships aren't. [This message has been edited by TheFreak (edited July 02, 2001).]
The Rockets will likely have $13 million available under the cap if they renounce Hakeem. Webber will likely get $11 to $12 million per season. a team that's loosing money b/c you and Jeff don't go to basketball games Thanks, Mr. Gates. When you start passing out checks, make your first one out to me. Considering I nearly had to file bankruptcy last year because of all the money I spent trying to keep the team in town, I'm going ignore that statement. ------------------ How the hell should I know why God would allow the Holocaust. I don't even know how the electric can opener works. - from Hannah and Her Sisters [This message has been edited by Jeff (edited July 02, 2001).]
TheFreak: While I agree with most of your arguments in this thread, the Barkley trade was beneficial. I think Barkley was acquired specifically to beat Seattle. The double teams against Hakeem - and his inability to kick it out efficiently to someone else who could score - had killed them the year before. Mission accomplished. Barkley's rebounding and post-presence sparked the series win. IMO, the Rockets loss against Utah in the conference finals was a fluke; historically, Barkley had always gotten the best of Malone in their one-on-one match-ups. For the first time, he didn't. Perhaps age had finally caught up with him, and his lack of heighth became too much of liability; but I don't think Houston could have predicted that before signing him. Pippen... well, I agree that the Pippen-debacle could have been anticipated. ------------------ Clutchcity.net... source for all your Rockets, Astros, political, music, humor, and Gordita news. [This message has been edited by haven (edited July 02, 2001).]
I'll comment on Barkley in a moment, but for now I'm left with the comment: 'So... Kelvin Cato is in Webber's way?'. That's beyond satanic... using the mentality of a four year old to indict Rudy. Scottie was pulled in b/c he was supposed to be flexible, fill the seams, push the break, and act as a transition (get it? transition? ba-dom-dom) for the new & improved Rockets sporting Mobley and Dickerson. He failed miserably. I'm curious to see if Rudy equates Webber's mentality with Scottie.... (Damn, I guess this might be one of the few reasons that I would agree with the Mo Taylor underexpecters.) Barkley did as he was expected, I'm not sure what your concerns are in that scenario. Could the previous players have gotten the Rockets past Utah? Perhaps, but that's a question that only Robert Horry's child can answer. Weak analogy... one cannot compare the acquisition of a 39 year old player with a 28 year old; particularly when you're talking about a team of 24 year olds. I agree to an extent that 'friendships' aren't (where the end point is that your player leaves b/c he hates his teammates ), but I don't agree with the wholesale dismissal of stats. There's a reason why we collect stats. Sure statistics might be flawed from time to time, or askew b/c of variables (i.e. Mo Taylor's 17 ppg on the Clippers or his amazing 5.5 rpg next to rebounding monsters Kelvin Cato and Walt Williams) but some situations b/c of their inherent similarity allow us to compare statistics. The Kings are many things that the Rockets like to be or want to be: 1) Running. I love the fact that Steve Francis jumps into the middle of a swarm of big men to grab the ball and fastbreak. Really, he'll be able to do this his entire career. I'm sure he won't break an ankle and ruin the Rockets' season one year b/c of a piddly 3-5 million dollars just to get a rebounding forward. BTW, please don't remind me that Eddie Griffin is all of a sudden going to take care of the rebounding problems that exist in the 3rd position, 4th position and 5th position on the Rockets. 2) In the playoffs. 3) Contenders in the playoffs--- Does Mo Taylor have an adequate back to the basket game? I don't think so... and I'll concede that I like his outside shot better than Webber's. Will that inside presence be important in making the playoffs? *harp music while I remember what happened this past year* 1) Spurs 2) Lakers 3) Sac 4) Jazz 5) Dallas 6) Phoenix 7) Portland 8) Minnesota I would say that only Phoenix has a PF weaker than Mo Taylor. Let's remind ourselves that the Clippers just acquired Elton Brand (now we get to see if he's legit, or if it's a stats lesson). BTW, of course I'm thinking of the 'here & now', but I'm not fond of evaluating my favorite team's progress on evolutionary or geologic time scales. I don't have the patience. Also, I don't think that Webber is a '9 year vet'. I think it's closer to 7, I'll check. ------------------ calling powdered toast man girl you looks good won't you mock that draft up?!
Webber was drafted in 1993. The same class that produced such great hits as Anfernee a.k.a. "Penny" Hardaway, Isiah "don't call me J.R." Rider, Shawn "I'm Tall" Bradley, Jamal Mashburn, Vin "Damn I was good in Milwaukee" Baker, Lindsey "I wasn't worth the 11th pick" Hunter, Bobby "I'm a white PG" Hurley, Allan "I've got one eye brow" Houston, Nick "The Quick" Van Exel, Calbert "I'm a big bust" Chaney, and of course, Sam "I'm the best looking man in the NBA" Cassell. ------------------
Even with that amount (I tend to think that it's more... unless there are simply secret #s that we don't see (totally probable)), Moochie's salary is unrenounced at only 600K and you can resign Matt Bullard for the veteran's minimum. In that scenario you're really only loosing: 1) Shandon Anderson -- redundant. 2) Mo Taylor -- well, duh! 3) Hakeem... That's the whole issue isn't it? Hakeem for an extra year or Webber until his prime @ 35. That's a hell of a debate... and I don't know the right answer. There's always the Barkleyean veteran's minimum! BTW, spend your money on game tickets instead of bribing officials. It's more fun.
