I'm sorry, I just can't take you seriously if you think Bynum is even in the same league as Yao. Bynum would basically have to become a 20-10 player to even be in the same conversation. I respect it if you are basing your opinion based on projected stats. But it actually has to happen. This is the same problem I have with people throwing Dwight Howard on a pedestal alone as the best C in the league. They are mostly basing it on potential rather than actual results.
You're saying that there isnt much of a difference as far as what bynum brings to his team and yao to ours, and then you say that Yao is more valuable to our team. I think youre confusing Yao with Landry. I will make the Bynum Landry comparison but I still think Yao is on another planet compared to Bynum. Bynum isnt even anywhere near what Garnett could bring when Garnett was in his first few years. Yeah sure maybe he can develop into a good player if the team was centered around him but I dont think that he is anywhere near Yao. even if Yao peaked a few years ago. (which I disagree with) Yao is still a perennial All-Star and future HOF player. Bynum prolly wont be. anyway, i think we r beating a dead horse.
some of yall need to take off your homer goggles yao's the best offensive center in the league, but its no secret his weaknesses are a big hindrance at times. what other center in the league gets run out of the gym whenever a team plays small ball? andrew bynum had a field day against the warriors on the glass last season. i think you all know how yao does against small teams.
Of course not. But statements like, "Yao and Bynum aren't in the same league" or "Yao and Bynum aren't on the same planet" or "Yao and Bynum aren't in the same conversation" are devoid of any meaning. And yet people constantly use them in these player comparison discussions, and, well, that kind of gets on my nerves. Your (the collective "your", not just you) argument thus far has just been to point to some stats and say that Bynum isn't regarded as one of the best centers like Yao is. I don't consider that very convincing. I think you're maybe overstating the importance of some of these stats (like the "20/10" figure). And, yes, I do separate a player's productivity and his value. Value is heavily dependent on the quality of one's subs. In that sense, Yao is a much more valuable player for the Rockets than Bynum is for the Lakers. But in terms of actual ability and what they can provide their respective teams, I think it will be relatively close this year. Certainly not an overwhelming advantage for the Rockets, as some were trying to make it out to be earlier in the thread. Anyways, I agree we're beating a dead horse. I just wanted to give it that one last whack. Good night.
I disagree. Remember the game we played against the Warriors that started the 22 game win streak? Tmac was injured, and Yao basically went off on the Warriors because Adelman found ways to get Yao the ball in a good position to score. Weren't you the one saying "Bynum and Yao are close" or some derivative of that? How is that not the same thing? The commen isn't "devoid of any meaning" what it means is compared to Yao, Bynum isn't that great of a player. We use phrases like these because we are assuming other people can comprehend the intent behind the phrase.
When you make a statement of the form "I can't take people seriously who believe X", I expect some sort of argument as to why that belief is preposterous. Or, if such an argument isn't given, then the belief X should be self-evidently preposterous. In this case, X was "Yao and Bynum are in the same league". That could mean virtually anything, hence I said it's meaningless on its own. You followed that statement with something along the lines of "If Bynum isn't even getting 20/10, he shouldn't be in the same conversation as Yao." If that was a real argument, I would have left it at that. But it's not. So, essentially you provided two empty statements, one after the other. And, you know, I wouldn't have even cared if you didn't imply with your wording that anyone who takes an opposing view shouldn't be taken seriously. If that's the type of language your using, I think you need a real argument to back it up. Perhaps I missed it elsewhere, but in that post you didn't give one.
yeah, okay we get it. you are not insinuating that Yao and Bynum are equals as far as individual talent is concerned but their impact on their respective teams. without bynum the lakers are vulnerable but with him they are scary. I still say that your wording couldve been a little better. when most people see Yao and Bynum in the same sentence they automatically assume you are making a straight up comparison. but we are really splitting hairs when you start reciting lecture notes from Philosophy Logic 301.
Going back to the original topic, which was comparing the Lakers and Rockets position by position, my only contention there was that the Rockets don't automatically have a strong advantage at the center position over the Lakers. If you guys are partial to a stats-based argument, consider that according to 82games.com last season the Lakers as a team had a 20.2 PER at center, and the Rockets as a team had a 20.5 PER. And, yes, while the Rockets played a number of those games without Yao, recall that the Lakers didn't play a single one of those games with Bynum and Pau together. Looking specifically at those three players, 82games says that Yao had a 25.6 PER while playing center for the Rockets, Bynum had a 25.2 PER at center before getting injured, and Gasol had a 26.7 PER at center when he joined the team. So, if we expect that the vast majority of minutes at center will be taken by (an improved) Bynum and Gasol for the Lakers, does it make sense any more to say that the Rockets have an significant advantage there? Personally, I don't think so. And it makes no difference whatsoever that Bynum isn't a "20/10" player. When it comes to winning as a team, those type of individual statistical feats don't really mean that much in my opinion.
I actually think, based on pure ability at the center position, Yao and Bynum are close (though I'll still give Yao an edge). But Bynum is playing alongside a more offensively talented front line, so he won't see as many minutes or touches as Yao. Which means, Yao will almost certainly put up more impressive per-game numbers. But that doesn't mean the Rockets have a significant edge at the center position because "Yao >>>> Bynum". See my above post for a simple statistical argument as to why that may not be the case. Agreed ... I didn't intend for the conversation to veer towards a semantics argument. I hate those.
i disagree....if the lakers dont have bynum, they will fall short (again) to winning the championship. in this case, i would say they're about equal (i dont see rox winning it all either w/out yao) in regards to winning a title.
I still disagree. I think if you put Yao in place of Bynum that Yao still gets better numbers and maybe Kobes numbers or Paus numbers drop. I think the reason Phil Jackson chooses NOT to run thru Bynum has to do with his abilities. even in interviews Kobe never talks about Bynums ability to take over games and pose a matchup problem for other teams. he only mentions that bynum brings rebounding and some block shots. That sounds more like a role player than a Yao type player. When Shaq was there, they had the full package. I dont really see Bynum as being near the force shaq was offensively, defensively, and rebound-wise. and who was the big matchup during those years? Yao and Shaq. Yao hasnt dropped off much from then. in fact he has improved. That's why I can't see the real comparison of Yao and Bynum. not yet at least. but I do agree to disagree with you.
The Rocket have virtually no chance of winning a title without Yao. The Lakers got all the way to the Finals last year without Bynum, which would suggest they have some chance of winning a title without him. So, on that basis, I still say that Yao is more valuable.
Yao is better but it's much closer than the numbers would indicate. Bynum, at his worst, is ineffective/a non-factor. Yao, at his worst, is a complete liability. Yao Ming in my opinion is hands down, far and away, the most overrated player in basketball today.
Yeah, we should trade Yao for Bynum straight up. Morey is the man to make such a one-sided deal happen. make it happen Morey!!! Yao (an overrated player on the decline) for Bynum (a rising superstar)!!!
That's a very good way of looking at this comparison -- how much do the Lakers improve if they switch out Bynum with Yao, and how much do we regress if we switch Yao with Bynum. And I actually think Yao and Bynum will be closer to each other in their impact on the game this year than either are to a Shaq in his prime. I don't think the Lakers significantly improve if they traded Bynum for Yao, and conversely I don't think we get that much worse if we traded Yao for Bynum. Sorry for sneaking in the last word there.
