Okay, so let me try to talk some sense into you knote32. Because, underneath all of the Jordan hype, there is something called a TEAM. Basketball is a team sport. Jordan did not accomplish 6 championships on his own. And to that end, lets just look at what Jordan and Hakeem did. Fact 1: Ralph Sampson, Mitchell Wiggins, Lou Lloyd. In 1986, Hakeem, in his second year with these players routed the Lakers in 5 games and took what many believe one of the greatest teams ever to 6 games. Both the Lakers and the Celtics were greater than any team the Bulls ever beat. The closest team the bulls ever played to this Laker team AND beat was the Bad Boys of 1991. Then in systematic fashion, both Lloyd and Wiggins get banned for drugs in '87 and Sampson blows his knee out in '88. Hakeem in effect lost his front court AND his backcourt within two years. It took the Rockets years to recover from these losses. The problem was Hakeem was too good and we never got a high enough draft pick. Fact 2: Micheal comes of age in 1987-88 playoffs. He averages 35.7 points in the playoffs and STILL gets routed by Boston. Then comes the 87 draft. Micheal gets Scottie Pippen AND Horace Grant. It took 3 years before this trio would gel. Meanwhile, Micheal is still getting routed till 1990. Finally the Bulls win it all, but only after Pippen steps up to be a viable 2nd option. By then all of the super power teams are down gone and Micheal and Co. go on a run. Micheal wins his first championship beating an aging Piston and Lakers team. Magic is out of the league next year for HIV and Thomas has leg problems. The Million Dollar question: if Micheal was so legendary and a one man machine, how come it took scottie and horace to mature before he won his championship and why couldn't he do it in 1990? By then Pippen and Horace were good enough. Hakeem was floundering because his team was ripped out from under him. If he would have had Sampson LLoyd and Wiggins for more than 3 years, the bulls probably don't win at least 2 of those championships, maybe more. It was a matter of fortune. The bulls luck held out and the rockets got really unlucky. But Hakeem and Co played better teams then the bulls ever played and almost won in Hakeem's second year, because he had a team.
It is not just 6 rings but 6 unquestonable finals MVPS and playoff stats far ahead. Jordan is minimally the best player to enter the league from the 70s on. Magic, Bird, Hakeem and Shaq in some order can vie for a distant 2nd-5th in this period, with Duncan and Moses Malone solidly in 6-7, and Karl Malone, Barkley and Robinson rounding out the top 10. BTW Kareem if anything is underrated. Oscar rode that horse in Kareem's soph (MVP) year, not the other way around. Now Magic was the better player later, but Kareem was still an outstanding player in his late 30s. 6 rings, 6 MVPs, 2 finals MVPs, 19-time All-Star. Sick. Too many posters around here think of the late model version. We don't judge Hakeem, Shaq, etc, by their late 30s model, judge Kareem by early to mid 70s and he was awsume. And he is outstanding for a long time after that too.
To further my point, take a look at out drafts. The only draft where we really screwed up was 1986. We passed on Dennis Rodman, Mark Price Jeff Hornacek, and Nate Mcmillian. We took Buck Johnson. From 1985 to 1991, with our 5 first round picks, this is the talent that was left on the board when the rockets picked. 1991 Rick Fox, 1990 Toni Kukoc and Antonio Davis, 1988 Rob Strickland. 1985 Terry Porter and AC Green. Beyond that, 1989 we traded for Purvis Short, which was a terrible shot of bad luck, considering there were several great players, Kemp, Dana Barros, Vlade and BJ Armstrong. And in 1987 we traded for Cedric Maxell, which wasn't bad considering the draft that year was terrible by our pick. It took the rockets till 1991 before we had a good draft. But from 1988, when we lost Sampson, Wiggins and Mawell, we only made 1 good move, which was trading for Otis Thorpe. That is 4 long years. And from 1985 to 1990, 6 long years, we had no significant draft pick come in. That is because of Hakeem being too good and mismanagement of the team. The bulls got lucky in that they got 2 great players in 1987, only three years into Jordan's career. And neither player got hurt.
Hakeem was unquestionable the best player and MVP and defensive player of the year both of his finals as well. He torched his man nearly every year and every team he played in the playoffs. Seattle was the only team that ever had Hakeem's number. But Jordan wasn't immune to that either. The Bad Boys had Jordan's number cold. The only reason Jordan got past the Piston's was Scottie Pippen. That's a fact.
No dis to Dream; he was an phenomenal, historic player But you've made it sound like Pip and Grant made Jordan, and not the other way around; do you remember Pip's wussy game 7 migraine or MJ getting in Grant's grill countless times whenever he'd start to whine? as far as they're concerned, Pip and Grant just happened to be in the right place at the right time; they would've never reached their level of game without MJ and the willingness to buy into the Bull's system; remember when Grant got all hissy about not enough shots so he bounced for Orlando? That's pretty much the last you heard of him before falling off the map; Pip at least was intelligent enough to keep growing under Mike But that's the thing that made MJ great - he grew - on and off the court, right before your eyes, larger than life. He didn't come into the league a LeBron-ish 6'8" 240lbs prime physical specimen; he was a skinny 6'6" kid with big hands and hops, but a will of iron unlike anything. Thing you marveled about was the fact that he got turned back, beat down for so many years but you saw him get up, you saw him grow stronger and overcome those obstacles and setbacks (remember the broken foot?) But not only did he grow; everyone around him grew. Misfits, guys who were 'so-so' on other teams elevated their games and played above and beyond themselves because MJ would've have them give otherwise. The Bulls weren't a dynasty because Pip/Grant took MJ to the next level; it's because MJ finally understood how to elevate not only his game, but everyone elses around him btw, your 'facts' are opinion; as is everything i've just said, so it's all good
Fact 1: Pippen was named a top 50 player all-time. He was far from being a misfit or so-so. Very far. Grant was a grant player as well for a top tier role player. Fact 2: MJ never come close to winning even a series before Pippen and Grant got to the Bulls. Look, I'm not saying that MJ wasn't great. But MJ did not win anything by himself. Pippen, Grant, BJ Armstrong, and later Dennis Rodman, all helped. Thus, 6 championships were not just MJ championships, they were Pippen's and grants and all the rest.
duh, NO **** yes we know that if MJ was literally playing 1v5, he would not have won all those championships. all we're saying is that MJ is better than Dream when it comes to the overall history of the game. period, end of story seriously, you are on a 1-man crusade here. who exactly are you trying to convince, the whole world?
where are your facts? or are u just going by the jordan legend? My point was, 4 things made jordan a media darling, which has in turn contributed heavily to him being named GOAT. First, he was a scoring machine. Jordan took so many shots it was ridiculous. Thus he averaged 35 plus, year in and year out. Second, Jordan was a marketing genius, which was backed up by his all-world acrobatic dunking. Third, jordan had a server case of will to win. He wanted to win more than any player in league history besides maybe Bird. The Championships. One out of these three actually hindered jordan from his championships. Taking all of those shots. One was just for show. Dunking. and one was truly legendary. His will to win. Beyond those, the mature jordan increased his legend by being one of the most complete players to ever play the game. He became a great defensive player to add to his offensive prowess. BUT none of this was better than dream, except maybe Jordan's will to win. Hakeem was probably a top 2 defender all-time. He was only lagging Russell. And Hakeem's offensive game was top 5 for his position. And if Hakeem had had a team with Sampson on it and a backcourt of LLyod and Wiggins and Rodney Mccray for more than 2 seasons the great Jordan would have found it much harder to have gotten 6 championships. A little know fact: we had to trade mcCray and peterson to get Otis Thorpe. This was another fall out of Sampson's knee. If we had him and sampson and all of our guards, what could jordan have done?
I like the long explanation above. I think the 6 rings is just as attributed to Pippen as it is Jordan. W/O Pippen the Bulls would not be champions. Maybe once or twice. I know most people don't think very much of Pippen in his Rocket's days but you can not overlook his greatness. His year where he was a one man show was unbelievable and I'm surprised he does not get more credit for that Bulls team. I am glad he was chosen as one of the 50 best players because he deserves it no matter how much of an a-hole he was.
You call Pippen "so-so". Yikes, he led his team to the Eastern Conference Finals with the other so called misfits. If not for Dream, he might have won MVP that year. I thought that told the whole world that Jordan is still the greatest of all time but he still has one of the best all around players ever to play the game. That was a huge feat for Pippen and solidified his career instead of being overlooked by people like you but I guess you are one of the only ones. Again, I am not arguing that MJ isn't the best either. But point is Michael needed Pippen and vice versa. We are not talking about some so-so role player here like you say above.
Pip overlooked by 'people like me?' lol. i bought his freggin' jersey over MJs because I liked what he became under Jordan's tutelage; but to clarify, i call Jud Bueschler, Stacey King, Bill Wennington, Luc Longley, Ron Harper, BJ, Randy Brown, Craig Hodges etc 'so-so' and yes, Jordan MADE Pip into one of the best all-around players ever to play the game
Ok, so if you liked Pippen so much then how do you underestimate his WHOLE season w/o Jordan where he took that team of complete scrubs + Toni Kukoc to the Eastern Conference Finals. You act like Jordan taught Pippen how to become one of the greatest playmakers, defenders, and intangibles player when in fact Jordan started becoming one himself after a couple of rings. If you agree that Pippen was a one of the best all around players then you have to agree that Pippen needed Jordan just as bad as Jordan needed Pippen in order to get ALL of those rings with ALL of those other scrubs. Point is, Dream did it with ALL of those similar scrubs and yes as much as I love the 94 Rockets every one besides Dream could be described as an average role player at best. I hardly remember anyone doing it as single handedly as Hakeem did in 1994. I would have loved to see Jordan w/o Pippen but the fact is he was always there and was always a huge part of that team. As one poster mentioned, Pippen really worked on his game in his third year which is exactly when the Bulls took off. He added a lot of strength and knew what type of player he wanted to be and could be and became it and I'm not sure how Jordan tutored him to become that. Yes, he most definitely made Pippen look better but w/o that one season w/o MJ we probably wouldn't even know how great Pippen truly was. In other words, a team with Dream and Pippen(in his Prime) would have yielded a lot more championships as well. Pretty much any all-star caliber player and Dream both in their prime would have been dominant. See Clyde Drexler, even though he may not have been in his prime that year.
sorry but i'm not sure what your point is; already stated i'm not baggin'/under appreciating Pip; and a lot of the other stuff (Dream w/Pip or MJ sans Pip) is all speculative and simply can never been known because it's not the reality of things; i think Dream/Pip would've been awesome; i think MJ/Drexler would've been cool; i think CP3 running the Warriors or Lebron/Wade in Miami would be sweet; not reality though i respect your views sincerely man; but i can't agree "that Pippen needed Jordan just as bad as Jordan needed Pippen in order to get ALL of those rings with ALL of those other scrubs" i'm certain Jordan would be the GOAT player he was without Pip; if not Pip, there would've been another 'sidekick' eventually; but i can't say for certain Pip would be as high-caliber a player w/o MJ; maybe he would, but i can't say without a doubt he'd still be one of the '50 greatest' or no better than Tayshaun Prince of today's game; again a speculation, a 'what if', a difference of opinion, with no right or wrong, and no way of ever knowing because it wasn't how things played out anyway, thought this was a Lebron thread...
Dude, my point was Jordan did not win those championships by himself and that he needed Pippen to step up to get past Detroit. Man, if you don't believe me, go rent the video of 1991 playoffs. It was said so many times by the announcers it was THAT obvious. Will pippen step up, was the story that year. Go rent the video and then tell me that MJ could have done it WITHOUT pippen.
Look at Jordans game winning shots compared to Hakeems..... Pippen and Horace could keep it close, but no one in the history of the game was a greater "closer" than Jordan..... With 10 seconds on the clock down 1, I want Jordan with the ball..... Nah Mean? That, to me, seperates Jordan from the pack. No one has ever had more killer instinct.
for a clutch shot, I want reggie miller or larry bird. Jordan was a VERY good closer, but to win games at the end, he relied on being the most athletic player on the floor. He could not match miller or bird for clutch shooting. Hakeem was the same as Jordan. He relied on athletic-ability. He picked u apart all game.
Come on man, Are you kidding me? Are you trying to tell me that Hakeem was more clutch than Michael Jordan. You pick a player in Reggie Miller who has hit some clutch shots, though he has never won a ring. He has never won at the highest level. Michael, on the other hand hit shot after shot and the eventual series winner against the 98 Jazz on the highest possible stage. The same Jazz team that took out Dream and the Rockets in 6. Who cares if he relied on being athletic, all that matters is the W. I'd rather have an athlete taking it to the whole to win a game as opposed to a jumpshot
I am saying that both dream and jordan were not clutch shooters. They both made clutch shots, but it was their athletic ability that set them apart. Watch what dream did to David Robinson in 1995. That is a mirror image of what JordaN did to teams. I am convinced that Larry Bird was the clutchest shooter to ever play the game, followed very closely by reggie miller. Do you honest think any of those bulls team could have beaten the celtics or the lakers in their prime. Larry and Mchale, Magic and Worthy and Cooper would have abused every bulls team, but maybe the 72 win bulls team. And that is only because Dennis Rodman was a freak.
the only thing obvious is that you'll discredit MJ for whatever, you'll find something to tarnish it; fair enough; not everyone was a fan and some people prefer to see the world that way instead of giving credit where it's due; it's all good
Yes, that is a mirror image of what Jordan would do, except he'd also hit the game winner, leading the bulls to 6 rings while completely dominating the 90s. I know this is blasphemy but it makes you wonder if Dream would have had 2, if Jordan hadn't decided to play baseball.
