What does GOAT mean? I recently noticed people using it quite a bit and have never heard it before. Is it what's taking the place of You The Man or All That And A Bag Of Chips?
MJ was greater than Hakeem, he has the hardware and stats. Could Hakeem at his peak taken MJ and the Bulls, very possible, maybe even probable, but it didn't happen so we can't base much from it. Jordan is defintely a top 5 player of all time and has an excellent case for the top spot. Hakeem is surely top 15, and probably top 10, but I don't think you can make a non-homer not completely subjective argument he was the best basketball player of all time. That said I wish Duncan was compared more to Hakeem, because that is who Duncan should be compared to based on his total game (footwork and polish at that size, shot array, defense, mobility for a big man). And Duncan, as great as he is, is basically Hakeem-lite or Hakeem ultra (as in extra-lite no calorie version). They need to quit calling Duncan the "best center to ever masquerade as a PF" and compare him to the best centers of all time--then Hakeem would be more fully appreciated relative to today's stars because no other big (not Yao, not the current verion of Shaq, not Amare) right now is on the same planet as Hakeem was.
I forgot to mention, I second this notion all the way. I don't think I'd even follow basketball had I not had the chance to see Hakeem play in person a half a dozen times a year for about 12 years or so of his career. He is why I grew up obsessed with the Rockets. He is why I'm still a Rockets fan, despite the fact I have absolutely no interest in any other sports.
it's all good jmw; forums are all about opinion and you know your hoops; it's all in good fun/debate and i appreciate the feedback; i know we could go on forever about hypotheticals which aren't the reality; there'd be no right or wrong i have to smile though at pretty much every name or team that was mentioned as a sort Jordan 'answer' because i'm pretty sure each one has their own personal 'owned by Jordan' poster in the archives; not to discredit them in any way - all high-caliber players for sure; just saying MJ, the GOAT, was on a whole other level than anyone; no dis to the Mailman, Stock, GP, teh Reignman, Eaton, Drexler, Barkley, Thunder Dan, the Jet, Hakeem, Admiral etc; East or West? MJ would've found a way to absolutely break them is all I'm saying; all those cats were (and still are) admittedly happy just to have played ball with the man! that's beyond player caliber, team compositions, East/West; that's transcending the sport itself but even MJ admitted each gen learns from the previous and even he would be surpassed; is LBJ it? only time will tell; so far he's off to a great start and he's got amazing potential
Well actually, I'm not saying that any of those teams had the answer for Jordan (though I do believe the Rockets did). I'm just demonstrating that the Western Conference was tougher than the Eastern Conference in those years (just as it is now) and that it may well have been more difficult for Jordan if he had to battle through the Western Conference to the playoffs each year. We can never know for sure though. p.s. Thanks for the compliment. You don't get those all that often around here.
I don't mind Lebron's hype, he's going to grow into the player they've built him up into. But I'm sick of Kareem getting a free ride on all the greatest centers lists. The guy road coattails almost as bad as Phil Jackson. If it wasn't Oscar it was Magic. Can you imagine how bad Hakeem would get clowned on if he missed a finals game and SAM CASSELL started in his place at center and WON? *not saying cassell is magic johnson, but still...*
Sure you can. Hakeem never had the support that Jordan, Bird, Chamberlain, or Magic had in their primes. He got three years of Barkley and Drexler, but he never had a Pippen, West, or McHale to go to war with his entire career.
no worries man! it's just good to find a forum with folks who actually know the game and are intelligent enough to support their thoughts w/o getting caught up in a silly 'i'm right/your wrong' flame war; sure it happens but differences of opinion are the spice of life and being able to listen to others objectively is what really produces worthwhile results damn... i should run for office... j/k
Desert, the only thing that Jordan had MORE of than Hakeem, imo, was his will to win. That is basically it. I mean Hakeem had the total game, just like Jordan, but Hakeem's will to be great wasn't on the level with Jordan. To me, only Larry Bird had as much of a will to win as Jordan. I would have loved to see how Jordan would have responded to Larry in his prime, hitting 3 after 3. Larry, however, wasn't the defensive player Jordan was. I think that Jordan separates himself with his will to win. But skill-wise, Hakeem had as much or more than Jordan ever did. You can't change my mind about that.
Horry = 7 rings Jordan = 6 ring Horry is better than Jordan, obviously. Or lets take a real example. Russell's 11 rings Jordan 6 rings Both were the best players on the team. So Russell greater than Jordan. Right?
In his own era, Bill Russell was more dominant than Jordan. Your Horry example is pretty embarassing, Do I have to explain that one?
Or perhaps you need the 'splaining to? The point is that rings do not (necessarily) equate to the total definition of all time greatness.
you're right... it should be common f'ing sense that MJ will always be considered a greater player than Dream. period, end of story. what (the forum member), you can't change the rest of the entire world's mind about that...have fun trying, if that's your goal this debate is just stupid, it makes Rocket fans sound like they're whining about sour grapes now if you're comparing Dream to LeBron, then obviously Dream was a much much better player, to this point
another delirious statement. MJ won 6 titles... Hakeen...2. That means MJ went through the playoffs FOUR MORE TIMES and won. Do you know how hard it is to get 2 bleepin titles?!?? how many 3-2 defecits, or 3-2 to leads you have to close out. AND MJ was a wing player...its so ridiculously unconsciousable and tough to fathom that I don't even want to go into further details.
Obviously Jordan is a better player than Robert Horry, But in a debate between 2 similar superstars, championships have to be in the discussion and are usually what matter most.... Jordan has 6, Dream has got 2
When comparing 2 similar superstars, Rings are what matter most and they do define all time greatness......
The majority of the guys you mentioned won't even register with most fans. You can call that ignorance on the "casual" fans, or it's a simple fact that they just weren't that good. They're like the Battier, Howard, Hayes, etc of their times. They contribute to a winning team, but putting them in the category that would've threatened MJ is ridiculous.
look... i'm ALL FOR wanting dream to get his fair shake in the historic sense. but i'm just not sure it's going to happen. he wasn't exactly a marketers "dream" in that he wore goggles, knee-pads, had an accent, was muslim, etc... and these things kept dream from being more widely known/embraced. but robinson, ewing, shaq, barkley, malone, etc... ALL KNOW HOW GREAT HAKEEM WAS. he torched them all. all the time. bill russell and wilt chamberlain have said some of the greatest compliments about hakeem that any player could ever wish for. and that is good enough for me. i just feel lucky i got to watch the guy for all those years. who cares what ESPN classic thinks? those of us here know better.
