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Lebron James passing to the corner when he gets in the paint

Discussion in 'NBA Dish' started by jopatmc, Apr 28, 2012.

  1. SamFisher

    SamFisher Contributing Member

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    On a related note, If Arian Foster can average 5 yards per carry, why not just have him carry the ball 70 times a game?

    You will never have to punt and he will break all of the rushing records.
     
  2. jopatmc

    jopatmc Contributing Member

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    Ahhhh, good point. Overusage leads to failure. And it's true.

    But here's the correct analogy. If Arian Foster is already 4 yards downfield, should he bail out and take a knee to keep from getting hurt or should he forge ahead for the extra yard? That's what Lebron is doing when he is already in the paint. He's bailing out by passing out.

    Your analogy would be the equivalent of Lebron forcing up every shot. That's not what I'm saying. I'm saying he should take all those shots in the paint when he gets in there with the dribble because it is greater efficiency than any other shot available to his team...except for a lob dunk to Wade or Bosh. The only pass he should be making when he gets in the paint is a lob. That's it.

    If there is an NBA body that is built to shoulder the load of usage....it is Lebron's.
     
  3. francis 4 prez

    francis 4 prez Contributing Member

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    based on last year's finals, i find it a lot more problematic when lebron gets in the corner after passing to the paint than the other way around.
     
  4. jevjnd

    jevjnd Contributing Member

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    Since a 3-point shot is worth 1.5 times more than a shot inside the 3-point line, I think that we can agree that the cumulative effect is 1.5 times greater. Multiply these percentages by 1.5 and they're all well over 50%. That's what makes it such a great basketball play. At the end of games where you have a very finite amount of time with which to score those last few buckets and you can't afford to miss -- now those might be different situations.

     
  5. jevjnd

    jevjnd Contributing Member

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    To a point. Won't Arian Foster get hurt if he's carrying the ball 50 times a game? Won't his yards per carry go down? Are you saying that they should never pass the ball and should only run the ball?

     
  6. TheChosenOne

    TheChosenOne Contributing Member

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    So I asked LeBron for a dollar the other day...
     
  7. Air Langhi

    Air Langhi Contributing Member

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    350 yards a game would not be a good offense.
     
  8. MorningZippo

    MorningZippo Member

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    I would argue that the efficiency of his 2 point shot in the paint would drastically decrease if the whole defense knew he was going to shoot it every single time. The entire defense scheme would change, knowing Lebron would never kick out, and the 3 pointer would become a more effecient shot.
     
  9. jevjnd

    jevjnd Contributing Member

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    It would be if you almost never had turnovers and were able to eat almost the whole clock every game :p.

     
  10. TheChosenOne

    TheChosenOne Contributing Member

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    LMAOOOO
     
  11. jopatmc

    jopatmc Contributing Member

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    So, like when he gets in the lane now, the defense kinda guesses whether or not he's gonna shoot or not and depending on their guess, they collapse on him or they leave him open and cover the shooters?????

    Dude, they collapse on him every time anyways. When he gets in the paint, they collapse. It doesn't matter whether or not he shoots or not, they collapse in hopes of getting him to pass out. He gets his 70% finishes now with them collapsing on him.

    I would argue that if Lebron shot when he got in the paint instead of passed to the shooters for the less efficient shot, that the defense would have to rethink how they approach Lebron and they would either have to triple him as soon as he crosses half-court with the basketball or they would have to double him to prevent him from receiving the ball. Then if he did receive the ball, they would have to bring over a 3rd defender to force him to pass without putting the ball on the floor. Now, what does that do to Wade, Bosh, and all the other bit players??? It gives them much better looks and opportunities at the rim instead of standing around spotting up for a jumper.

    I respectfully argue that the whole team's efficiency would increase if Lebron became more aggressive in finishing at the rim when he gets into the paint.
     
  12. jopatmc

    jopatmc Contributing Member

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    More prime examples in this game tonight. Successive possessions, Lebron drives, beats his man, then passes out for the 3-ball. One miss, one make. Both possessions he could have dunked or laid it in, and most likely at least one of those possessions would have resulted in an And 1. And at the very least the Knicks would have had to foul him in the act of shooting and put him on the FT line with another foul against.


    As I'm typing this, he does it again, penetrates all the way into the low box and then throws it out. Fortunately, they threw it back to him down low and he decided to finish this time...with the And 1.
     
  13. SamFisher

    SamFisher Contributing Member

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    ^ I just tuned in and saw him do it twice, once for an open 3 that Battier hit, and once when he was really off balance and had to toss it back up to the top. An open corner 3 is probably about a 50% shot for a specialist in it like Battier. That means he has to convert on over 75% of his drives (either by making the basket, or being fouled or hitting 2 ft's) for it to be a superior option. That's a very demanding standard, and doesn't take into account the other benefits of keeping the defense honest (and not fatiguing himself into the ground).

    I really don't think you can question LeBron's offensive decisionmaking; he has 3 of the top 10 highest PER seasons in history - the only other two names you find in the top 10 are Chamberlain and Jordan.

    EDIT - then Battier just hit another one.

    Looking at the stats on 82games.com - James has an effective FG% of 72% in close - irrespective of fouls, that's definitely not a superior option to an open corner 3 (if it's a 50% shot)
     
    #113 SamFisher, Apr 30, 2012
    Last edited: Apr 30, 2012
  14. francis 4 prez

    francis 4 prez Contributing Member

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    hoopdata has lebron at 75% but considering they have a "3-9 feet" section, that means the 72% is on 1 and 2 foot shots, i.e. layups and dunks, not even floaters or 3 foot runners or flip shots or anything else in the paint. and even those layups and dunks include all of his fastbreak and other assorted uncontested layups and dunks, meaning the actual percentage with any sort of defense in the vicinity in a halfcourt set is certainly much lower than 72%. and of course, even that percentage is with lebron passing to teammates and not taking the tougher shots that jopatmc wants him to take, which would again lower the percentage. considering his "3-9 feet" shooting is 47% (which is actually pretty good) and even that includes the more uncontested shots and not the ones lebron would be passing out of, it's hard to imagine he's even close to 60% on the heavily contested "at the rim" shots that this thread is about.

    while i would think the open corner 3 is not a 50% shot, i could certainly see the 35% and 39% numbers durvasa quoted going up 5% to 40% and 44% on corner 3's where the D is drawn in and there's a kick out. so i'm thinking it's still significantly beneficial to pass out of a strong contest, even for lebron james in the paint, for an open 3, even if it's not to steve novak (which makes me think of the fact that lebron + 4 steve novak's would be the best offense ever).
     
  15. jopatmc

    jopatmc Contributing Member

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    It's not a 50% shot, Sam. What kind of shots do you think Shane takes out there, contested 3's? Nope. They're all wide open. And he doesn't hit 50% out there. The whole team only hits about 36%. And Lebron's 72% finishing doesn't include all the fouls he collects getting in there.

    There's no question what the most efficient play is. It's not even close. Especially when you consider the ripple effect of foul trouble on the opponent and being in the bonus and getting to the FT line ad nauseum. Keep attempting to twist the truth. 50% my eye.
     
  16. Shroopy2

    Shroopy2 Contributing Member

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    In other simpler words

    Lebron should not settle for facilitating, cuz thats a "complacent" style leaving some efficiency on the court. And when he needs

    He should look to go hard to the rack every time he touches the paint cuz that maximizes his skill level. And he can GO to that ability when he NEEDS to do it the most, instead of going to his "passive" nature to distribute.

    I've said years back in the basketball World Championships in '06 that Lebron could drive to the rack AT WILL whenever he REALLY wanted to. When defenses soften up and Lebron is driving hard, he can be Teen Wolf freakish.

    But there's other aspects of the game too. He still has to play face up D, get steals, block shots from behind, grab boards, have energy to do an all-around game. As big and durable as Lebron is, bodying up every time like that could take its toll. But you can fairly say him NOT doing that is whats keeping him from being THE KING for sure
     
  17. jopatmc

    jopatmc Contributing Member

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    Good post.

    The thing about Lebron's passing is he is a good passer but he's not a great passer. The thing about his scoring ability is he is a great scorer but he wants to be a great passer. He should understand his mismatch and how to play to best help his team. I'm saying he could average 35 ppg and still average 6 or more assists. He passes way too early instead of imposing his will and domineering his matchup down the floor.

    By the way, I don't see a significant difference in the energy he expends in finishing versus the energy he expends in stopping all his inertia when he is in motion so he can make those passes and not incur contact. It's six of one and half a dozen of the other. I could make the case that some of those long passes back out when he is in the air in the paint actually take more energy than just laying it in.
     
  18. dsid411

    dsid411 Member

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    Yea you guys tell Lebron how to be a better player... :rolleyes:
     
  19. jopatmc

    jopatmc Contributing Member

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    Here's a question for you, smartie pants. Why didn't the Heat win a championship last year?
     
  20. RedRedemption

    RedRedemption Contributing Member

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    LeBron choked.
    And not because he got into the paint and passed out.
    Its because he never even drove it in.
     

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