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LeBron can't win it alone? Neither could MJ, Bird or Magic

Discussion in 'NBA Dish' started by Octavianus, Jul 29, 2010.

  1. Icehouse

    Icehouse Contributing Member

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    I agree with the writer, and Simmons is an idiot. It's ok to get drafted or traded to a certain team and wind up next to a star (even if you force a trade or come out early to be taken by a certain team), but not to choose to play with one as *a free agent? That makes no sense at all. It's ok to be lucky, but not to choose your fate. Lol.*

    And I wish folks would stop saying Jordan made Pippen. You have never heard Pippen say he was the player he was because of Jordan. If that's the case, then why didn't Jordan make anyone pre Pippen?
     
  2. TmacsRockets

    TmacsRockets Rookie

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    Pippen became great due to playing with Jordan, he even said so himself.

    Source: GoogleBooks



    Pippen relates on how his game improved - Link




    Pippen realized himself that going against MJ is what made him better.



    http://www.nba.com/bulls/news/asksam_091023.html


    Source: NBA.com




     
  3. JMAD21

    JMAD21 Member

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    He had a "good" team but not a championship team!

    Think about it, the players built around LeBron were NOT winners (other than Shaq) none of those players have ever had big time TEAM success! And they did help LJ out in the reg season, but once they got to the playoffs Mo, and Jamison just set back and expect lebron to do it all himself!! Which works against an 8 seed (bulls) but not against a championship contender (celtics)

    They expected LeBron to play like he did in the piston series when was seriously unstoppable, people seem to forget about the times of greatness when their opinions are this jaded!! LeBron has earned the right to play wherever and with whoever he wants! Why? Because he's the best!!
     
  4. intergalactic

    intergalactic Contributing Member

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    You are missing the point. LeBron is a douche not b/c he left Cleveland, but b/c he was a complete jerk about it. If a girl wants to turn a guy down, she tells him respectfully, not by holding a giant party where she gives head to the guy's boss from work.

    If LeBron had skipped the tv special, and signed anywhere, really anywhere except for this 3-headed fix in Miami, nobody would be upset with him. It has nothing to do with the fact that he decided to leave Cleveland.
     
  5. kaocsaephan

    kaocsaephan Member

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    My mistake. It was not clear that you were describing his TV special with ESPN. I also disagree with the whole thing and think it was one of the most classless things that a superstar could have done, and it's understandable for the fans in CLE/Akron to be upset. LA trolls? It's just one of many foods for them.

    Superstars developed in small markets are most likely going to leave unless they are winning championships. You can't hold it against them, either. I wouldn't want Tyreke Evans to leave Sacramento if he becomes a top 10 player, but if the Kings fail to surround him with talent, then I would want him to have an opportunity elsewhere. Obviously, though, there is a difference with being a top-10 player and being the absolute, clearly best, #1 player in the league and putting up stats that we have not seen for a very long time but still watch other players in the NBA that are less talented win championships.
     
  6. steddinotayto

    steddinotayto Contributing Member

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    I think for the older NBA fans (which includes myself) it's just about the lack of competitiveness James showed when he decided to go to Miami. Jordan had help, Magic had help, and Bird had help. I don't think anyone denies that. What Jordan and Magic probably meant when they said they "wouldn't do" what James did is take the easy way because, crappy teammates or not, Cleveland had the best record in the NBA for the past two seasons. In other words, they wouldn't have jumped ship on a team that won 66 and 61 games the past two seasons.

    Of course, here is where everyone would say LeBron's team wasn't good enough or didn't have what it took or just flat out sucked. Fair enough but would going to a team like Chicago versus Miami be THAT bad? I mean, if LeBron can take a team full of crap teammates to 66 and 61 wins, wouldn't a team comprised of Derrick Rose, Joakim Noah, and Carlos Boozer yield better results? IMO, I think it would have been enough for James to get to, at the very least, the Conference Finals year in and year out. But, alas, James took the "sure thing" in Miami and that's why a good amount of people are angry. I mean, this is the BEST PLAYER IN THE NBA. Why would he need to go for a "sure thing" when all he needs is just a better SUPPORTING cast? You replace Mo Williams with Derrick Rose, replace Jamison with Boozer, and replace Shaq's corpse with Noah and that team could have competed with the Celtics, the Magic, and the Wade/Bosh combo in Miami.

    Maybe it's because James had been anointed the heir apparent, the savior, the GOAT, and other superlatives before he even got drafted that we are quick to sour on him. Maybe we don't really want him to fail but just succeed and rightfully be considered the GOAT when it's all said and done--as the leader of HIS OWN TEAM. Magic had Worthy, Kareem, Cooper, and everyone else but he was their leader. Jordan had a murderer's row of help but he was their leader. Bird had McHale, DJ, Parrish, and everyone else but everyone knew Larry was the leader. Kobe's last two rings wouldn't have had happened if it weren't for Gasol, Fisher, and Artest but he was, for better or worse, their leader. James going to Miami? There's already a leader there and James even admitted that he wouldn't mind taking a backseat as a facilitator.
     
  7. DCkid

    DCkid Contributing Member

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    I don't understand the ultimate motivation of some of Lebron's defenders. I mean, I agree with you that he can do whatever he wants. Duh. But speaking as a fan of the NBA, does this not bother you at all?

    The competition in the league has decreased. The art of building a contending team over time through the draft or subtle maneuvering has been thrown out the window. It's pretty much the exact opposite of a feel good-story here if the Heat win. Yay, a cheap championship instantly bought by superstar collusion! Doesn't that give you goosebumps? How this is something any NBA fan can respect is beyond me. Not to mention any self-respecting Rocket's fan who witnessed a team win a championship led by one superstar and a bunch of veteran role player pieces that were placed around him.

    But let's ignore all that, because he's the best and has the right to do what he wants! That's fine. And myself and all the other true NBA fans have the right to call it like it is...a sham.

    In fact, I am inventing a new slogan...2010 Miami Heat: The Road to the Shampionship.
     
    #107 DCkid, Jul 29, 2010
    Last edited: Jul 29, 2010
  8. JMAD21

    JMAD21 Member

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    I understand that some people will feel that way, and to a certian dagree I agree with u! It does take away a lot of balance! However, other teams are doing the same thing, just not as extreem as Miami!

    NBA players and teams are better than ever right now, so it won't be a walk in the park for Miami like some people think!!

    And just because we disagree that does not give u the right to claim that I am not a "true" NBA fan!!! I love basketball more than anything and, for reasons I won't get into, over the past year have had it taken away from me!! So when it comes to basketball the NBA is really all I have left so please do not say I am not a "true" fan!! I am as "true" as they get!!
     
  9. lionaire

    lionaire Member

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    EXACTLY! They were a 60+ win team the past two seasons.
     
  10. DaGreatest

    DaGreatest Member

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    yea but neither of them ran under another superstars coattails to another city either.. I love how lebrick witnesses tries to justify his Robin-like ways.. of course those guys didnt do it by themselves, nobody can, but the way hes going about doing it leaves alot to be desired, charles frikkin barkley made a great point the other day he said, "if youre a 2 time MVP that means youre the man, you get players to come to you you dont go to noone" alothough not many players wanted to go to CLE he couldve had Amare Stoudemire before the trade deadline but nah they felt scrub ass Antawn would 'be a better fit' what a stupid assumption.. the Cavs FO did everything they could to surround him with a great team and they had the best record in basketball 2 years running and all the brainwashed followers in the media and his fairweather fans had the Cavs as the favorites, and for the 2nd consecutive year lebrick fails once again and basically quit on the team from games 4-6 EVERYBODY makes excuses that he doesnt have anyone around him, that is such b.s. its vomit enducing, sports fans need to just admit that lebrick just isnt who they thought he were, but James is who I thought he was (Dennis Green voice) a front running choke artist, its just true... let the "witnesses" hate on this post :grin: but deep down inside you know Im right
     
  11. Crudder

    Crudder Member

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    Anyone even closely arguing that MJ, Bird, or Magic did it themselves are truly revisionists (I didn't read the whole thread so I'm not sure if anyone is even saying this). MJ didn't beat his much rivaled Pistons until he learned the value of teamwork and stopped trying to do it all himself.

    I seriously wouldn't have even given Lebron's decision another thought had he been coming from a team like the Clippers that just sucked year in and year out. But he didn't. He came from one of the strongest teams in the East that needed a few more things to get over the hump (it's not like the process is a linear one where you add A and you get B). He should've stuck it out in Cleveland.
     
  12. BONIERO1576

    BONIERO1576 Member

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    He does have a right to play where ever he wants. But we have the right to question his competitiveness when he's willing to become second banana instead of being the man and carrying the load.

    Regardless of the "help" these stars got they were very much the primary star on thier team. I really don't care where he plays but it was a cop out, there is no way around that.
     
  13. rpr52121

    rpr52121 Sober Fan
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    The biggest problem with the article is the reason he gives for things being screwed up now is precisely the reason why there is so much backlash.

    The writer states that back then, every team was stacked with talent because there were about 6 fewer NBA teams. As a result, to win in league with talent on every team, it is necessary to have a few Hall-of-Fame players much less least current stars.

    In today's NBA, with increase number of teams, the star players are more spread out. Many teams have one star, and contending teams have 2 stars, one of whom is more often than not a 2nd-tier star.

    How many teams since the Shaq/Kobe Lakers have had two top 50 players or Hall of Famers due to their NBA play? 1st & 2nd Tier stars?

    Only click this spoiler if you want to read ALOT of text.
    ------------------
    The old Pacers team did have Reggie Miller who was great, and a fading Chris Mullins so I'll give you them. Smiths, Rose, et al were not stars. (2 (technicality-Mullins), 0)

    The Jason Kidd Nets had Kidd. But is Vince Carter anything more than a Tier 2 star. He put up stats, but elevate his team? R. Jefferson, Kenyon Martin, Kerry Kittles? They did have Deke (HoF/2nd Tier) for a year when he was dominant, which got them to the Finals, but they could (2, 3)

    Iverson 76ers did have two Hall of Famers in their prime. They were just outclassed by the Lakers. Iverson and Deke were great, but just could not compete without a supporting class. (2, 2)

    The JailBlazers had an old Scottie Pippen and Rasheed Wallace. Pippen is a HoF but because of his play here. Rasheed is at best a Tier 2 star, and that is a stretch. Sabonis was a great player but not when he got to the Blazers. Stoudamire, Wells, Steve Smith, fading Schrempf, Augmon? (1 (technicality-Pippen), 2 )

    The Cassell Bucks with Big Dog Robinson, Cassell, & Allen. In that time Robinson was today's Al Jefferson. Is that star worthy? I'll give him a Tier 2) We love Cassell, but he is no HoF player and not really a star. While Ray Allen is considered the best shooter in the current NBA, is he truly an all time great? He never could do anything in Seattle once he left the Bucks, and with both Milwaukee and the Celtics is more of a role player job than a star. I'll say Tier 2 star. He may get into the HoF anyway, but there are so many more deserving players who should get in before him. (0, 2)

    The Kings had Weber who is arguably a HoF and all time great. Who else? Anyone think Bibby, Peja, Divac, Turkoglu, Christie or Bobby Jackson is a Tier 2 star? Maybe Peja, but if I had issues justifying R. Allen as one, how can I do Peja? (1, 1)

    None of the Detroit players would even be a Tier 1 Superstar. You could make an argument that Billups is a Tier 2 star, but that is by no means a sure statement. Rasheed Wallace again but only Tier 2. No one else (0, 2)

    The Spurs have Duncan who is one of the greatest players of all time. Tony Parker, a true star/superstar? He is a good player, and in a system that best utilizes his skills, but your talking Kevin Johnson/Tim Hardway level, not Gary Payton/Isiah Thomas level. Ginobili could probably be seen as a Tier 2 star, but he is not one of the greatest NBA players. Anyone going to remember him in 20-30 years outside of San Antonio & Spain? He will make the HoF, but only because of his international contributions. (2 (technicality-Ginobili), 2)

    Miami had Wade who was a star. I will give Shaq as a Tier 2 star because of his play during the Finals, otherwise no one else on that team. Old Payton or Antoine Walker? Very Funny. (2 (technicality-Shaq), 2)

    Dallas only ever had Dirk who will be in the HoF. Now they have Kidd who is a technicality, but not playing like a star now. (2(technicality-Kidd), 2(technicality-Kidd))

    Rockets had Yao and McGrady. Both have to be considered stars, but due to injuries, I cannot legitimately give them more than Tier 2 status. If our dreams occur, Yao could possibly get to the HoF. The whole being China's first great player helps, but he still has a way to go. (0 (inc.), 2)

    Suns had two stars, Nash as a Tier 1 and Amare as a Tier 2, but they refused to play defense. And even then, Amare is not making me think HoF right now. (1 (inc.), 2)

    Jazz with D. Williams and Boozer. D. Williams is a star at the moment, and I would argue Tier 1. Boozer is at best a Tier 2 star. Both could make HoF some day, but a lot has to be done first. No one else comes close...Okur, AK, or whomever. (0 (inc.), 2)

    Orlando with Howard has possibly 2 stars, but that is a stretch. Howard is a star, but if I'm saying that prime-time Deke is 2nd tier star, Howard is no better than that. If he continues at this level, though it is hard to see him not getting to HoF simply for being the best Center of this generation. Carter is also a 2nd tier star again. Otherwise, no one else really. (1 (inc.), 2)

    Honestly, even now I remember reading many people debating whether all the members of the Big 3 in Boston will make the Hall of Fame. Garnett is easily one of the Greatest PF's of the last 20 years. I would argue the other two are less clear. R. Allen was above. Pierce is completely not an all time great. He is like Ginobli, in that he can close a game, and give you star like moments, but he has always been Antoine Walker 1.5 to me. Rondo could be some day, but he has a ways to go to show that ability. (1 (inc.), let's say 3 (technicality-Pierce)(inc.))

    As someone already stated, the new Lakers have 1 all time great/HoF in Kobe. I have a suspicion Gasol will get in because of his international play, but he is nothing more than a Tier 2 star at best. (2 (technicality-Gasol), 2)
    ----------------------

    So other than Pacers/Nets/76er teams outclassed by the Kobe/Shaq Lakers team I looked out there have not been any teams since then with 2 solid (as in not a technicality due to their play elsewhere/before) All-time NBA Great players in which .

    There have a been a number of teams with 2 stars (and grudgingly Celtics with 3 though I am not sure I agree). More often than not, though, it was a Tier 1 & a Tier 2, or someone on the downturn of their career.


    Now in the midst of NBA with the max levels of talent at these levels, you now have a team with Lebron, Wade, and Bosh.

    Unless someone expects a Penny Hardway/Grant Hill level event befalling the first two, you cannot but label them both as Tier 1 stars in their primes with a strong likelihood of being Hall of Famers and all time great players. That cannot be said for any team since the Lakers Millenium Run. On top of that, the addition of Bosh, a legitimate Tier 2 star, puts them on another level star wise.

    That is already likely (2 (inc.), 3). So in an watered down league, a team with that many stars is not at all the same as a loaded team in a league where every team has a number of star players.
     
  14. nbalopez23

    nbalopez23 Member

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    yea thats true but elite superstars dont pair up elite superstars join all stars 4 ex LBJ and bosh that would be fine his legacy would be okay but LBJ and wade is 2 elite superstars which means LBJ legacy is over when comes 2 comparin him with jordan even if he wins 50 rings
     
  15. Al Capone

    Al Capone Member

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    That's some r****ded logic you got there.

    "Even if he has better numbers (which makes him the better player) Wade is the better player" :rolleyes:


    "Even though Jordan scored way more points and had more talent, it was Scottie Pippen who was better"

    "Even though Hakeem averaged almost 40 pts in the playoffs, it was Kenny Smith and Mario Elie who went down as superior players because they hit big shots"

    "Even though Jordan has 6 rings and Kobe has 5, their talent pales in comparison to the greatest player of all time, Robert Horry, who has SEVEN, count them, SEVEN f*****g rings! Boo yah! Take that, common sense and elementary reason!"


    Lotta morons and kobe ball lickers itt :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:
     
  16. Steve_Francis_rules

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    How is the Miami situation really that different from the Lakers situation? Both teams already had the one star guy (Kobe, Wade). Both teams were able to go from also-ran to contender immediately by bringing in another key piece without giving up anything major in return (Gasol, James).

    The Celtics also weren't built through the draft and several years of "subtle maneuvering." They were built by a team getting a few high draft picks because they sucked, and then lucking out by sending those pieces for veteran all-stars that were sold for cents on the dollar.
     
  17. thetatomatis

    thetatomatis Member

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    Hakeem could though. Just kidding. I meant without Hall of famers for his first one.
     
  18. Steve_Francis_rules

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    Do you realize that in the same sentence you just said that the Cavs stupidly passed up on the opportunity to add an all-star big man in his prime and that the front office did everything they could? Don't you think those are quite contradictory statements?
     
  19. spysta

    spysta Member

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    Lol are you crazy!! without kobe standing still there is no way that play is possible
     
  20. Steve_Francis_rules

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    I keep asking this in all the Lebron threads and most people continue to ignore it, but I'll try one more time:

    Can we at least wait until we've seen the team play to decide what role Lebron is filling with this team?

    Lebron was the best (or second best) player in the league this year according to basically everyone in the world. No one was putting Wade ahead of him a year ago. Why is everyone so quick to do it now? While Lebron is joining Wade's franchise, he's not really joining Wade's team. The guys that are out there on the court this year are not guys who were playing with Wade a year ago. This will be an all new team. The fact that Wade had established himself as the leader when Jermaine O'Neal and Michael Beasley were there is irrelevant now.
     

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