Did u watch the 1st game in Orlando?Could you name those big man who could not stop until yao put back in? Mr. knowledge,they ought to be named SHAQ! YES! SHAQ is first pick by MAGIC!
I can't understand the babble in your 1st few sentences. If you would like to clarify, I would be happy to respond. So you are discrediting Cato's stats because he obtained them against backups? Interesting. So since Cato is no good, then every other backup center in the league should have similar stats (I will look into the stats on backup centers, but suspect that I will find few, if any, that are comparable to Cato's). Thanks for the Mr. Knowledge comment. I take pride in my research and analysis.
As u said,few of backup center got stats as cato,so u tell me cato could hold most start C except shaq and Z. What a funny conclusion. Even Big ben could not did that sort of things!
I am assuming you are talking about Andrew DeClerq (I referenced the PBP log and Cato was mostly guarding DeClerq when he was in there). Declerq had 6 pts and 6 boards in 22 minutes. Not sure why you compare this performance to Shaq. Keep up the good work though. You are doing well.
That is exactly what I am saying. Cato should be expected to guard most Cs (backup or starter) by himself. If you would like to name a C, besides Shaq, that you feel he can't guard 1 on 1, then I would be happy to debate those points with you. However, if you want to continue to just make asinine statements with no substance behind them, then I feel it would be a waste of time to continue any sort of discussion on the topic. Ben Wallace is the 2 time defensive player of the year. If you are saying that he can not handle most centers, one on one, then your basketball credibility, IMO, has just dropped even lower than it already was.
Did you watch that game? Or u r just stupid like me? I am stupid enough to talk to someone by gestures, who never open his eyes.when cato defence DeClercq,DeClercq got one dunk, 4FT(cato shooting foul).could u give me a answer?why cato could not hold Magic 's poor "inside power" . (did u ever check how many fouls cato got in just 10mins,if u said u watched that game,and still tell me cato could hold most C except Shaq and Z, u ought to be name Mr. knowledge . Cato should be ...<> cato did it. I never compare this this performance to Shaq. It is you!u tell me cato could hold most C except Shaq and Z.So. if someone kick cato out ,I guess his name is SHAQ(as u said) ! Dont play a sly trick by stealing the sky and putting up a sham sun!
I certainly did watch the game. Am I as stupid as you? I'll leave that one alone (shooting fish in a barrel). You don't have to open your eyes to know that 6 pts and 6 boards is not a Shaq like performance, nor is it a dominating performance. Bye. Have fun.
codell:- All thoes posters trying to make excuses for Yao Ming are off their rocker ! The problem between Larry Smith and Yao Ming was a simple one. Larry Smith didnt like Yao Mings 'Finesse Style of Play' and wanted him to play with a different attitude or aggressiveness[IMHO]. Rudy T was not asking anything of Yao Ming that was not natural to him. Yao Ming didnt perform, his game was disturbed and the Coach, Larry Smith sent him to the bench. I base these feeling on my observation of the games on TV, where facial and body expression is often clearly shown. A similar senario for Francis, but different coach demands. I feel sure the players wouldn't say anything about it !IMHO
I believe that Rudy did also. So this is not a Smith "thing". There is nothing wrong with asking a player to be more aggressive. To not try and change a #1 draft pick's bad habits, is not the answer. If Yao does not become more aggressive, he will not be able to lead us to a title. How do you know this? This is silly. I am quite sure Rudy tried to emphasize to Yao that he needed to work on his agressiveness around the basket and his board work. How was his game "disturbed"? Because he was benched when he was not playing well? What else do you expect given the fact that we were trying to win games and Cato was playing well? Should we have just left him in there and take our chances that we could win while he was a liability? I have no doubt Yao's expressions show frustration and disappointment. It hurts to be benched when you are not playing well.
I just want to add that Rudy obviously tried to get Yao to be more aggressive. Did anyone see the first ten games Yao played? He did become more aggressive. Not as much as he will need to in the future but it did change. That was great. Yao probably played as many minutes as Yao could handle if not more. There were times when he just couldn't get up the floor until the play was almost over. He was exhausted.
Codell, I don't think you refuted any of my points. On other hand you danced around or avoided admitting your failed arguments. It's funny how you then insisted on declaring victory. I will try this 1 time and will drop the subject. It's not worth it. That number is misleading and when used in your context, it amounts to distortion of the truth. Fact: 1st 9 games, Yao played 18 mins per. Next 56 games he avg 32 mins. Last 17 games under Larry, he avg 28 mins. Your argument is one sided at best. I believe Yao can post big numbers if given more minutes in those games. Voting for the ROY is as much a perception as stats. Adding a pt to Yao's avg is not a big deal. Why did Amare come out ahead with the same stats? He scored some points with the voters for Phoenix making the play-off and lots of points for several big games at the end of the season. If Yao had those monster games, that would grab the headlines and stay in the mind of the voter. Read my post again. Helping Yao out is half of the equation and many teams double down on the post. (I will comment on Cato later). The other half is that Yao is required to help others on defense more than any body else including the man playing the same position as himself, Cato. Standard stuffs? Wrong! Not even a defensive-only center does that much! Try telling Jabbar and the Lakers that it was silly. It extented his career and helped the Lakers to those rings. We all know that Yao played on fumes toward the end. We all know he's played 2+ years non-stop. Why do you think the coach/ the team should not try things to help out their own players? Why must you put them at a disadvantage? BTW, this is the only season Yao should get the special treatment. Next year if he runs on fume, it will entirely be on his head! There are many points you made that have certain logic except that you only look at things one way. You always conveniently left off the facts that contradict with your earlier conclusion. About Cato: If you think Cato is a better defender u r mistaken. He never was a great defender before. Even this year, Yao changes more shots than Cato. Cato plays decent defense but does not help out much or not very effetive when he tries. And forget about those numbers that you think Cato can post in a mythical 48 minutes. Cato never avg more than 26 mins/ game ever. This is his best year but in the games that he played longer his numbers dropped, he fouled more, slowed to help on defend ... Go back and watch your TIVO and see for yourself.
Bingo!!!!! Ding Ding Ding This is only one of the r****ded move that black hole brought to this team. The farther Mr Mean is to our team the better we will eventually become. If Coach Brown is going to keep one assistant I hope he keeps Jim Boylan - Jim I can leave with. But not to worry - I think Larry Brown will clean house.
codell Rudy T asking Yao Ming to be agressive is a totally different thing to Mr Mean forcing you to be agressive. The images are different in each coaches mind, Rudy T sees Yao Ming developing his agressiveness in a more natural way over a period of time. Larry Smith looked as though he was expecting a Yao Ming suddenly to becomea Warrior, almost a Miracle! You misunderstood what I was getting at, thus missing the point of why Yao Ming wasn't given the chance to show himself, even when the Rockets were out of the playoffs. Steve didnt like the way Larry was pressuring himself or Yao Ming.
It's not worth it cause you have no leg to stand on. However, we can keep going if you would like. These numbers are not misleading. Even with those 4 noted low min games, there is only a 4 min difference. Giving him those 4 extra minutes a game was not going to make one bit of difference. Not one. You seem to be implying that in those 4 mins, he could have turned a subpar game into a "monster" game. Sorry, you are wrong. Especially given the fact that in those last 17 games, he OBVIOUSLY did not have much to give and was playing on pure heart. You still continue to ignore the fact that Yao was running on fumes towards to end of the season, which DIRECTLY affected his production. Please address this comment here, as you have chosen to ignore it twice now. Before I give my response, I would to point out that in this statement, you are implying that exceptions should be made for Yao when he is not producing just for the sole purpose of keeping him in the game in hopes that he can squeeze out a "monster" game and win ROY, which would be in direct conflict with the overall team's needs (make the playoffs). I will address this again. You are saying that in those games where Yao was struggling (i.e. shooting 1-9, grabbing only 2 boards, having the ball stripped), he could have or would have turned it around into a "monster" game? And you are saying that Yao should be given extended minutes despite the fact that he was hurting us on the court and that Cato was playing better? Please explain to me whey Yao deserves to play more mins than what he played when the Cato was clearly more effective behind him (this is another point you are ignoring). Before I give my response, I would to point out that in this statement, you are AGAIN implying that exceptions should be made for Yao when he is not producing just for the sole purpose of keeping him in the game in hopes that he can squeeze out a "monster" game and win ROY, which would be in direct conflict with the overall team's needs (make the playoffs). I've read it again. And again I will say give you the same response: It is not effective to use a man to double down on someone when Yao SHOULD be able to guard that man in single coverage (i.e. why should we be doubling players like Ostertag and Dampier when we NEED that extra defender to double players like Malone and Jamison?......just so Yao can stay in the game longer???). If Yao is getting pushed around, you bring in Cato. If Cato is doing well and is able to single cover someone, when Yao isn't. Then you leave Cato in. Period. It is just common sense. Centers never line up for a rebound on a FT??? I would like some other unbiased parties to chime in here. Do centers almost always line up in rebounding position on a defensive FT? Based on my 19 years of watching basketball, the Rockets and the NBA, they almost always do. I could give a crud what Jabbar did. Yao is not Jabbar. Not having your tallest player in position to grab a rebound off of a FT is just ludicrous. It is asinine. Its dumb. Its idiotic. Its just plain stupid. To insinuate that we should place a 3 in Yao's rebounding slot during FTs so he will be more well rested is the absolute most mind boggling theory I have ever come across on this board. Ever. Why don't we just not have Yao rebound at all? If we really want to save his energy. Lets let him take off down the court on any missed shot. I am quite sure that Griff or MoT can rebound themselves. I realize Yao played 2+ years. You are getting sidetracked again in order to support your argument. Lets stick to the point. Yao was tired. Yao was not producing. Yao was benched as a result. Bottom line. When a player does not produce, you bring someone in that can. Yao doesn't deserve to stay in the game when hes not producing when it directly jeopardizes team success. How is a team supposed to help Yao not be tired? That makes no sense. You are either tired, or you aren't. There is nothing Larry Smith can do to make Yao not be tired. You are saying that Larry Smith should have played him more minutes and then you say that Larry should help Yao so he is not tired. This is a HUGE contradiction right here. Please explain. I would like to point out, AGAIN, that you are placing the individual needs of Yao (with regards to the ROY), ahead of the team. Well again have to disagree here. Team needs come 1st. If you disagree with that, then you are a Yao fan 1st, and a Rocket fan 2nd. A rookie, not matter how hyped, DOES NOT deserve special treament in the heat of a playoff drive when he is clearly not producing because he is tired (and when the player behind him is able to hold his own). Looking at things one way? Please explain. What facts have I left off that contradict anything I have said? Please stipulate and I would be happy to address them. If you are going to make generalized statements like these, do not even bother responding to me unless you are going to post some substance. #1, I never, ever said Cato was better defensively than Yao (for the record, they are about even). So you just wasted your time with that whole paragraph. Not sure why you chose note to read the post in its entirety. However, Cato played 24+ mins, 15 times last year. In those games he averaged 29 mins, 9 pts (56% shooting), 8.5 rebs, 2.8 blocks a game. Pretty damn good production when he plays over 24+ mins. How does it feel to have your whole theory about that shot down? I don't have to have TIVO to know that Cato produced last year when playing big minutes.
Please explain how Rudy "asked" and Smith "forced" cause I do not see it. And please do not spout out something about facial expressions. Once again, I will ask you to explain how Smith was expecting Yao to be a warrior. Quite honestly Yetti, I have not misunderstood anything because you have yet to try and explain your reasoning (besides facial expressions). You are saying that Yao wasn't given the chance to show himself. I have been saying that Yao was not producing and was tired and had to be benched in favor of Cato. Ragingfire and yourself seem to be on the "Yao should play no matter what so he can earn the ROY" bandwagon. If you are, just say so. If not, give me reasons why you feel Yao should have been given extended minutes when he was CLEARLY not producing. Where did Steve ever say that Smith was pressuring Yao? I have never seen or heard about that.
Who was coaching when the Rockets lost to the Clippers (twice) the Bulls, the Caveliers, the Wizards, the Knicks, and the Miami Heat? Thank you CASE CLOSED.
Discussing with you is like talking to a wall. I suggest you take a day or 2, come back and read the early posts again. You just did not understand what people said. I will come back on this topic in a few days if you like. Just to point out 2 thing that you consistently misunderstood even though I said it 2, 3 different times. You said I think Yao should play no matter what. Wrong, wrong and wrong. I never ever said that. I quoted 3 games that Yao played well in but did not get the extended minutes. Three games does not mean "no matter what". Bench Yao in his bad games, I never ever argued against that and you kept bringing them up. You mixed apples with oranges. 4 more minutes avg / game does not mean you let Yao play the extra 4 minutes every game. You give him 10, 15 minutes in the games he plays well. You give him 0 minute in his bad games. Can you understand the difference? And again, I say: Just a few monster games, specifically those 3, will score him some points with the voters. I can comment on everything you said in your last post but I had promised to drop the subject so I think I'll stop here.
You will never come back to this topic because I have shot down every single one of your arguements, just like I will continue to do in the rost of this post. I certainly did respond to that. How convenient that you overlooked it. Here was my response (btw, my response to this was on the 1st page, 24th post in case you can't find it): Quote from Codell Against Seattle, Yao had foul problems (4 PFs in only 22 mins). Against Orlando, Yao did play well indeed. We blew that game wide open in the 3rd quarter. No reason to play Yao when the game has already been decided, especially considering that Yao was playing on fumes at that point (the 8th spot had not been locked up yet by Phoenix and we needed to conserve Yao for the next game). Against Denver, Yao was in foul trouble here too (4 PFs in only 15 mins). Also, Cato was 6-7 with 6 blocks when he came in. Do not fault Larry for playing someone who was clearly the better option that night. I do not even understand what this jibber jabber means. I guess you are saying Yao should play his normal minutes when he his playing well (i.e. not in foul trouble, not shooting 1-9, not being beaten badly on the boards, not having the ball stripped frequently, etc.), which I agree with: vs. Denver, scored 13 pts, grabbed 16 boards, blocked 5 shots and played 33 mins vs. Sixers, 23 pts, 13 boards, blocked 2 shots and played 33 mins vs. Bucks, 15 pts, 6 boards and 4 assists and played 33 mins vs. Nets, scored 24 pts in 31 mins vs. Kings, 11 pts and 19 rebs in 33 mins vs. Warriors, 23 pts, 14 rebs and 4 blocks in 33 mins Do you see a pattern here? Do you see that when Yao had a strong all around game, he was getting his normal minutes? He did have monster games, and he played big mins in those. Its the games where he stunk that he did not get mins and rightfully so. I find it hard to believe that you feel Yao would turn games where he was shooting 3-9, being beat badly on the boards and not playing good D, into "monster" games that would have affected the ROY voting. Sorry, the odds were against it. Enough so that leaving him in the game despite hurting the team was not worth it. You can comment but you won't cause you want to drop the subject? Sounds like you don't have anything left to stand on. Good. I win. Since you quit, lets sum up our arguements: Ragingfire says: Despite being in a playoff drive, Yao deserves his normal minutes, or more, even if he is a) in foul trouble and/or b) not shooting well and/or c) not rebounding well and/or d) Turning the ball over too much and/or e)Being outplayed by Cato Codell says: Because we are in a playoff drive, Yao should be replaced by Cato if a) Hes in in foul trouble and/or b) He is not shooting well and/or c) He is not rebounding well and/or d) He is turning the ball over too much and/or e) He is being outplayed by Cato. Ragingfire says: In order to let Yao rest more while we are on the court, we should not have Yao rebounding FTs and instead have him stand under the opponents basket and wait for the ball to come back down (even if this means having to have EG/MoT try to box on centers and Posey/Rice box out other PFs). This should be done because Jabbar always did it and it helped him rest. This should also be done, despite have a C on the bench who is #4 in the league in rebounding efficiency. Also, defensive centers do not line up on defensive FTs "that much". Codell says: You should always have your center and PF in rebounding position on a FT, since they are your best rebounders. This is the way it is done 99% of the time, except when it is late in games, you have the lead and you want your big men in position to play D in case of a last second shot. Ragingfire says: We should send an extra man to help Yao on D so that he can stay on the court and so he won't worn down as much. This should be done so that Yao has some extra time and energy to win ROY. This should also be done, even if it means having to double players who shouldn't be doubled (like Ostertag, Robinson,Collins, Divac, Dampier, etc.). Codell says: If you are going to double team someone, they better be worth double teaming. It is silly to double the aforementioned players, especially when there are others who you are better of doubling. If a player is so tired that his man has to be doubled no matter what, then another player should be brought in (Cato) who can handle their man in single coverage. Ragingfire says: Cato is not an effective player when having to play over 24 mins. Codell says: There were 15 games this year where Cato played over 26 mins. He averaged around 9 pts, 9 rebs, and 3 blocks when having to do so. Codell's conclusion: Cato was very effective this year when playing over 26 mins.
