I dont think it was Larry's job to give Yao every oppurtunity to win ROY. I dont think Suns played Amare more to pad his stats. The dude lost, Amare won. Get over it. Is Yao above critisicm? It seems to me he can do no wrong according to some... Plus how can you factor in the first 9-10 games for the sake of your argument? You have to go with the official stats, its pure speculation of what would have happened otherwise. In which case he was 1 minute out of his average with Larry at the helm. Big freakin deal. There is one thing Larry did that Rudy in all his coaching days have never done. Benched Steve when he got out of line, that alone merrits consideration for the head coaching job in my eyes... "CONSIDERATION!"
1) It's not Larry' job to help ur player? What the heck is his job then? To help the other team's player? As long as it does not affect the outcome of the game adversely, he should give Yao the minutes. Check out the games I listed. 2) Amare did get to play more to pad his stat. Go check out the play by play for those games I listed and more , you will see. If you don't agree, show me some, just don't say things without proof. 3) Read my post. I said Yao played weak in some games and well in others. I am always fair. Read Codell's post and compare his criticism in those games he names. You and he called people out but you are the ones who went overboard in your negative assessment. 4) 1st 9 games, Yao played 18 mins per. Next 56 games he avg 32 mins. Last 17 games under Larry, he avg 28 mins. What part did u not understand? 5) I let this topic went a long time ago until I saw Codell calling out Yetti. He talked as if he had a point, just like you. You just talked and have no thing to back you up. 6) Larry for head coach? You r out of ur mind!
What??? Are you saying that Yao got the ball and everyone cleared out to the other side of the court?? I never saw that. Not once. You obviously do not know what an ISO is so your point here has no validity. What style is that? From my view point, we ran the same sets we ran with Rudy (double high pick; two man/PnR on the weakside; etc.) Again, you obviously do not know what an ISO is. This is where one player received the ball on a given side of the court and the other 4 players "clear out" to the opposite side, leaving the ball handler operating room on his side. I never noticed it and although it might have happened once or twice (probably because of an offensive breakdown), it was more often than not, not by design. Under Smith, we continually ran spread sets, double high picks and a ton of two game PnRs on the weakside. No one, including me, was asking Yao to "change his playing style". Grabbing more than 2 rebounds a game and making two foot layups and dunks has nothing to do with asking Yao to make mid-season adjustments. I am quite positive that is something that has been emphasized with Yao all season long. These were not new concepts to him. Change in game plan? How so? Please explain. As stated before, I did not see a noticeable change in the plays we ran. Regardless, if there were slight deviations, they certainly are not the reason that Yao was missing 2 footers, having the ball stripped, having his shot blocked by people 8 inches shorter than he was or keeping his man sealed off for rebounds. Why should Yao improve on a type of play that we don't even run for him? We have never run an ISO for Yao. Not once. Your point here has no validity. Yao's playing time (in a few games) was drastically cut due to poor performance (we were in a playoff hunt and Yao was not performing and it was not fair to the team to leave him in there when Cato was playing well behind him). The amount of ISO changed? I can deny this easy because you don't even know what an ISO is. The winning % sure did change. From Rudy's last game (against Phoenix) going back to the Jan. 17th game against the Lakers, we were 12-15 (44%). Under Smith, we were 8-9 (47%). Down the stretch, Smith had a higher winning % than Rudy did in the previous 27 games. Again, I didn't not see a noticeable change in our style of play. Playing rotations? An arguement can certainly made here (usually due to poor on court performance). I am sure a playoff spot meant alot to him. I agree, as it meant alot to everyone. However, you are getting side tracked. This is about whether or not Larry cost Yao the rookie of the Year. Yao's performance (and I don't blame Yao cause we all know he was giving his all) was more of a factor in the ROY face than Smith's coaching. Here is one thing we can agree on. Larry Smith will not be the head coach next season, nor do I feel he deserves to be. Larry Smith is probably not head coaching material and while a subjective arguement can be presented, he is probably not as equipped to run this team as Rudy. However, I will not longer sit by and let all the Yao worshippers blame anyone but Yao for his losing of the ROY race.
We needed to win games to make the playoffs. Yao's ROY race was secondary in comparsion (and Yao would agree). Also, after Yao became a starter and before Smith took over, Yao averaged right at 31 min/game. Under Smith Yao averaged right at 27. Now, lets take away the games against L.A. Clippers, Memphis, @ home against Denver and San Antonio (games where Yao played, 20 mins, 21 mins, 15 mins and 16 mins respectively. Take those 4 games out of the equation and Yao averages just over 30 mins per game (1 min per game under his average with Rudy). The reason why I am pointing out these 4 games is because Yao's reduced playing time in these games is clearly explainable: Against Memphis: Yao shoots 2-6 and has 6 TOs in only 21 mins (if anyone remembers, this is the game where Yao continually was having the ball stripped out of his hands). Against LA Clippers: Yao grabs only 3 boards with 0 blocks in 20 mins. Kelvin Cato has 12 boards and 3 blocks in 27 mins. Against Denver: Yao shoots 3-8, with 2 boards, 4 PFs (foul trouble) and 2 blocks in 15 mins. Kelvin Cato has 14 pts, 6 boards and 6 blocked shots in 33 mins. Against San Antonio: Yao shoots 1-9 with 3 boards in 16 mins. Cato didn't have a good game either. However, it should be noted that this game was pretty much a blow out the whole way through. You have just proved one of my points. Thanks. In that game, Yao played 35 mins, which is 4 over his average with Rudy. His performance had a direct correlation with his playing time. Funny how that works eh? Your whole point contradicts itself. We were outrebounded by 20 that game. Yao only grabs 2 boards and blocks 1 shot the whole game (in 33 mins). What did we need worse, his rebounding and defense or his scoring? Against Seattle, Yao had foul problems (4 PFs in only 22 mins). Against Orlando, Yao did play well indeed. We blew that game wide open in the 3rd quarter. No reason to play Yao when the game has already been decided, especially considering that Yao was playing on fumes at that point (the 8th spot had not been locked up yet by Phoenix and we needed to conserve Yao for the next game). Against Denver, Yao was in foul trouble here too (4 PFs in only 15 mins). Also, Cato was 6-7 with 6 blocks when he came in. Do not fault Larry for playing someone who was clearly the better option that night. ... I would rather rest Yao (given his poor performances) than "up his stats". Well just have to disagree here. We needed to win ballgames in order to make the playoffs, not force Yao in at garbage time to inflate his stats. Quite frankly, I am not a fan of over playing someone to acheive personal goals, especially when they place team success in jeopardy. We gave up 94 pts a game under Smith and 92 under Rudy. Doesn't sound like the defense disappearing. As far as the guards allowing their men to penatrate, this was a season long problem (actually the past 3-4 seasons). Are you saying that Larry Smith told the guards to let their men penetrate and funel them into Yao (lets keep the focus on Smith because thats what this discussion is about)? What game was this you speak of? I have most of the Rocket games this year on TIVO and I can go back and check because I find it hard to believe that Yao was in a shot blocking opportunity on every play for 11 minutes. You might want to back off of your guarantee. Smith certainly did "very little" to cause those mistakes. Larry's job to do what? Not sure of the question you are asking. We certainly won't have to worry about that any more. Im glad. Because I am just waiting for someone to blame the coach next year when Yao goes through a tough stretch. Bottom line is, Yao had to be held accountable for his performance and the loss of the ROY.
Its not Larry's job to go out there and make 2 foot layups for Yao. It is not Larry's job to go out there and grab more than 2 rebounds in 33 mins. It is not Larry's job to go out there and make sure Yao is not consitantly getting tied up or turning the ball over because he holds the ball to low. Yao's performance in certain games was having an adverse affect on the outcome of certain games and that is why is minutes were reduced (Cato played well in those games in comparison). So you would be willing to jeopardize team success in lieu of individual awards (i.e. Yao was running on fumes and there was no reason (individual acheivements aside) to burn him out to the point where it would affect him the next game)? Playing Yao during garbage minutes might have helped him (actually, probably not, considering his stats were already superior to Amare's (a couple of extra points and boards in garbage time would not have increased his stats enough to outweight the fact that Amare's team made the playoffs and Yao's didn't). I have debated this points in a previous post. Yao's reductions in minutes were in direct relation to his poor performance on the court and Cato's solid performance behind him. I do have a point. If you can't see that based on all the information I have provided to you, as well as the informtion of yours that I have pretty clearly dismissed as insignificant or inaccurate, then I do not know what else to tell you. Two things we now agree on. Anyone who feels Larry Smith should be our head coach next year (when a JVG, Brown, Riley or Dunleavy is available), is indeed out of their mind.
What were the opponents' winning percentages for those two stretches? It seems to me like, at the end of the season (when larry was coaching), that the Rockets blew a couple of games against obviously weaker teams during crunch time. I'm not saying I'm right, I'm just wondering out loud.. Besides, if you really want to be objective, you have to consider the opponents' winning % when you're talking about our won/loss record. Actually, you have to consider a bunch of other stuff too, but quality of opponent is an obvious place to start.
I like match so I thought I would come up with the calculations for you guys. 27 games (post Laker game on 1/17) under Rudy, opponent winning % is .527 with 62.9% of our opponents being in the playoffs. 17 games under Larry, opponent winning % is .504 with 64.7% of our opponents being in the playoffs. Of all our opponents, we only lose to two, IMO, that we clearly should not have (@ Seattle and @ home vs. Jazz). The other loses could have been expected and/or were not suprising (where we were either at home against a clearly better opponent like Portland or LAL or on the road against teams that made the playoffs like Milwaukee, New Jersey, Portland, Sacramento, San Antonio and Utah).
It was Larry's substitution pattern that really killed any Rocket game fluidity. Yao was bench mostly the entire 2nd quarter, with no any kind of expected playing time establishment. Hey, missing 2 ft layup was absolutely no excuse, but destroying what a little sub pattern Rudy already got going, and not know when you were going to play did not help either. 27 min playing time can be minimized without any prolonged on-court time. Face it, Yao is a star who should get the star treament. Geez, even Mobley stayed in the game over 40 mins with sometimes 1-8 shooting...
I agree. Dumb Smith screwed up the rotations and stuff. He let Moochie play FOREVER. Larry SMITH was just horrible.
Codell, You have some points, yet, you refused to see mine. Making the play-off is 1st priority, Yao's ROY should be second. (If other players were competing for MVP, 6th man ... they should be considered too). Yao might have 4 fouls in those games, but should you sit him until start of 4th instead of till end of game? What do you save him for? Except maybe if we have game the next night but that was not the case. What about the games after we were out of the play-off? I said time and again, Yao had bad games and good games. I never blamed Larry for Yao's bad games. I blame Larry for basically 3 things: 1) Did not give Yao the minutes in Yao's good games. 2) Did not adjust the defense to keep Yao from getting attacked (rarely help double the post) or having to help out "all" the time thus tire him out more. (I wish I remember the date of that game where I said Yao had to challenge every single shot for the 1st 11 minutes. I watched that game twice, the 2nd time I concentrated on just those 11 mins). It does not matter though. If you watched enough games, you would have seen plenty. Of course your center should help out but not to this extent. Watching other teams, you will only see defensive-minded centers carry that much responsibility. We have a rookie that exhausts himself every game and you require him to do even more than normal? (Of course, you know Yao inbounds the ball, runs up court and sets picks or posts up on most every play on offense too? Remember Jabbar walking up court or not even lining up for defensive rebound on FT? That is how you save your main man!) 3) Did not adjust the offense to put Yao (and other players too) in better position to score. ( Yes, you are right about those close in shots Yao missed, those are entirely Yao's bad). There are plenty of other times, we had bad spacing such that Yao beat his man, only to have the ball stripped by other defenders. We often times could not feed him the ball at the right time, right place (of course we had the same problem with Rudy too). Yao and Amare ended up with the same stats but the perception was that Yao had a bad April. If he had 2 or 3 monster games that month, the result might be different. Phoenix making the play-off had something to do with it but not entirely. Amare did not lead his team, peep could give him some points but not the ROY for making the play-off alone.
I am not going to go into great debth here because you have obviously not read my explanations as to why Yao's minutes were reduced. And if you are saying that substitution patterns should not be altered despite poor performances in the thick of a playoff drive, well, then well have to just disagree on that. You can't compare Mobley and Francis poor production/sustained minute situations with Yao's. 1) Mobley and Francis have no adequate backups. 2) Yao does. Cato played well behind him when he was benched. Yao is not at the point in his career where he deserves the benefit of the doubt, with regards to staying in the game for 33+ minutes when he obviously does not have it that night.
I have given all your points their due consideration and felt I have refuted them. Did you not see my long post just a few posts above this one? Then why do you feel Yao should play extended minutes when a) He obviously does not have it that game b) The game has already been decided and c) Playing unecessary garbage minutes would affect his stamina for the next crucial game. If the game has been decided, why play him garbage minutes when his stamina is already shot as it is? Just so he can inflate his stats a lil (you have ignored the point I made about garbage stats not increasing Yao's stats enough to make a difference). You don't seem to grasp the fact that Yao was clearly running on fumes at the end of the season. You save him for the next game, regardless if its the next night or not. This is why stud players hrldy ever play garbage minutes. There were 3 games Yao played after we were eliminated: Against Seattle, he was in foul trouble (and please don't say he should have played despite this). Against Memphis, he had 6 TOs in only 27 mins. He could not hold onto the ball and it was allowing Memphis to get back into the game. Against Denver, he had a nice game and his minutes were increased in conjuction with that. You have yet to show me where Larry benched Yao when he wasn't a) Turning the ball over an insane amount b) Getting badly outrebounded or not rebounding at all c) Shooting a horrible % (i.e. missing 2 feet layups) or d) Being clearly outplayed by Cato who was more effective in that given game Again, other guards penetrating into the lane was a problem ALL SEASON, not just under Mean. You have yet to prove to me that this problem was magnified under Smith. So we should sacrafice an extra defender to help Yao out, when we can bring in a Kelvin Cato who can handle single coverage? Does not make sense. Yao's offensive performance down the stretch was not good enough to sacrifice an extra defender just so he could stay in the game. Quit putting individual player needs ahead of the team. BTW, Yao should be able to guard players like Swift, Drognjak, Ostertag, Hilario and Robinson by himself. Extra defenders are too valuable to waste on players like that. Not only did I watch enough games, I did play by play for a good portion of most of them in Clutchcity Chat. What I am requiring him to do that has not been asked of him all season? Please clarify. Yeah, thats pretty standard stuff for a big man to do. Not having your big man line up for a defensive rebound on a FT is just silly. 2-5 feet away from the basket is not a good enough position to score? Yao was in the same positions to score as he was all season and exhibited the same problems all season (not taking the ball strong to the hole). How is missing a layup not Yao's bad? How? No excuse why a player should miss a layup, especially when they are 7'5''. Right time and right place? Yup, it was a season long problem. At least you finally acknowledge that this is not a Larry Smith induced problem. Glad we agree now that Larry Smith did not cost Yao the ROY. He had a drop off in March too (in comparison to previous months). The reason why Yao had two sub par months, was because he was exhausted. The grind got to him. Smith's coaching was not a factor. Do you realize that when you get close to the end of the season, that Yao would have to score close to 60 points in a given game just to bump up his scoring average by .5 point? Increased garbage minutes would have not helped Yao score 60. I am sorry, but .5 point on his scoring average would not have helped him in the ROY race.
I had read ur explannations, I got a feeling : u got ur argument firstly,then collect ur grounds of argument.Maybe Larry is not a bad coach ,but(I am confused) why Larry didnt put yao in when other teams could NOT stop yao.Not just one game.Steve ask Larry put yao in,then Steve was kicked out too! Larry really dont like yao? Maybe Larry like yao very much,so ....?SO , Larry will be a good coach in the future,not right now. Did u ever know Tracy?Just same story. Larry is NOT the right coach to develop yao. Of course,yao could learn something from Mr. Bean. yao could learn something from me too. I love cato,!But! Pls Name a C list cato could score one on one,and name a C list cato couldstop one on one?(if not fouled out). if someone tell yao, ur only job is Boards and Blocks !we will get a BIG BIG BEN right now!I believe!
There were few games that I saw, where Yao did not get his usual mintues when he was scoring on his man consistantly (unless he was clearly a liability on the boards and/or on D). This was the San Antonio game where Yao shot 1-9 and we were getting blown out. No reason for Yao to stay in. Not sure why you say that Larry does not like Yao. Benching a player for poor performance has nothing to do with whether a coach likes a player or vice versa. Larry Smith is probably not head coaching material. Not sure who Tracy is. Is Mean the right coach for Yao? I am sure there are better options. However, I am sure Larry tought Yao to the best of his abilities (lets keep in mind that Mean was one of the better rebounders in NBA history). . Scoring one on one is not Cato's game. Also, there is more to a player than just scoring ability. Its about rebounding and defense too. Given the fact that the NBA is somewhat thin at center right now, I would suspect that Cato could handle most centers by himself, unless their names are Shaq or Mourning. I don't think anyone is telling him that rebounding and defense are his only responsibilites. However, that is a huge part of a center's game. These are areas that Yao has to work on to be the great all around center that we are predicting that he will be.
Cato could handle most centers by himself unless their names are Shaq or Mourning !!!!!!!!! u r so funny!!! if cato got great defence ability as u said ,I could hold Jordan 0 pts in one game. Rebounding >< defence,cato would fouled out ,if he want to hold most C as u said,how about Divac?THX GOD If cato could hold Wang,
#4 in rebounders per 48. #11 in blocks per 48. I can see by the nature of your posts that you do not have a thorough knowledge of Cato, the Rockets or basketball in general. Good luck on that whole Jordan thing.
The reason Steve and Yao shot so poorly is because we had no offense last season - under Rudy or Smith. Rudy sucked at x's and o's and Smith didn't do much better. As much as I liked Rudy, I'm very happy to have a new coach come in cuz our whole coaching strategy needed a change. Whoever the new coach is will actually run a decent offense and will get Steve and Yao easier shots so that their shooting % is better. Steve has shown he can be an awesome shooter, he started the first part of the season off great but cooled off towards the end (to be expected though with that pathetic excuse for an offense last year).
Keep dreaming!If u r cato,Rockets had sweep Dallas out. I love cato,pls not hype ! boards NO.4+blocks No.11 VS backup C=hold anyone except Shaq and Z. Good luck,Mr. knowledge!
Not sure if you were agreeing or disagreeing with my post. The reason why I said, what I said, was to refute the fact that Larry Smith's performance cost Rudy his job.
