rafael palmeiro who we know used steroids at least recently has very similar stats to bagwell. low hr numbers to start out career then a steady stream of high 30s, low 40s. no real spike. I would post the stats but I don't know how and I'm not going to type them out, just this, for their careers bags has a .0576 her per at bat avg and palmeiro has a .0543. when I went to baseball reference one of the hitters who comes up similar to palmiero is bagwell.
dude you can't have it both ways, you can't use mcguire's stats to make an argument for bagwell and then dismiss palmeiro's. and honestly I wouldn't put it past frank thomas but I will say this because I saw his name to. frank thomas is a naturally big guy, he played tight end at auburn.
When did I use McGuire's stats to make an argument for Bagwell? I posted a lot of guys stats and did not draw a conclusion. The comparison to Palmeiro is compelling, but then to take that to its logical end the comparison to other similar players must also be taken into account. In other words, it's inconclusive. We could dig around different guys' stats and make comparison, we could take pictures of the size of different guys' head and penises and compare them; we could take a year-by-year study of the pock marks on Bagwell's and others' faces over the course of 15 years and still have jack beyond loosely formed conjecture based on a bunch of arbitrarily gathered BS facts and statistics.
but your argument is that mcguire and bonds are more suspect because of the spike in hrs. that's the point I was trying to make, the spike proves nothing. the fact that hrs were up across mlb actually disproves the spike theory even more. mcguire and bonds were also some of the best hitters of their time, sosa is one of the greatest hitters of his. if hrs go up across the board, its only logical that the top hr hitters hit more. griffey also had his three best years 96-98, no one suspects him.
All that to discount the spike argument? OK, Brady Anderson going from 16 to 50 HRs means nothing. Gotcha.
And how have I stated otherwise? ... The truth is, however, no one can say for sure how effective andro is (there isn't enough clinical information). Baseball players were "reportedly taking 500 to 1200 mg's of andro a day" (according to the pdr info I posted earlier)! ... There have been no controlled studies involving such high dosage levels. Can effectiveness be increased through boosting dosage? The users (or abusers) of andro, by their actions, seem to think so. As for you and I both "knowing"? ... We probably do not. Anyway, the argument that one steroid is more effective than another is irrelevant and does not disprove the point I'm trying to make --- which is this: Bagwell (and others) knowingly used a steroid substance (andro) for the intent and purpose of enhancing athletic performance. It is an accurate statement.
And they knowingly used a substance that was just as sanctioned by MLB at the time as the other uppers, or as the steroid known as cortisone (not anabolic), or as freaking Tylenol. It wasn't illegal, so they didn't feel they were cheating. Wait, let me use bold text as well: It wasn't illegal, so their actions do not equate to masking a known illegal substance in order to gain a competitive advantage. IOW, the guys' usage of andro is nowhere near as heinous as the whole BALCO thing.
You're now making a legal argument. Which is irrelevant to the argument of whether Bagwell engaged in steroid use. The fact is he did.
Bullcrap. The point that you're worming around so cleverly is that what Bagwell and others did with andro is not nearly as heinous as what BALCO subscribers did -- because they were not hiding from and going around MLB rules. You can deny it or write it off, but that doesn't invalidate it. It blows my mind the people that want to incriminate Jeff Bagwell. And this is the weakest BS yet. Right or wrong, andro was widely thought of at the time as a protein supplement that helped muscle growth. Care to "prove" whether Bagwell knew that it was "one molecular bond short of an anabolic steroid"? Weak-assed fingerpointing is all that is.
I understand your point that doing a legal substance is not as bad as doing illegal crazy **** that Barry Bonds did. I wasn't trying to equate Bagwell's use of andro with Bonds ... that's absurd. How have I "incriminated" Bagwell? How have I equated what he did to Balco & Bonds? Your argument with others on that topic is irrelevant to me. My position on this -- since you want me to go there is: Bagwell's steroid activity isn't nearly as bad as Bonds', but morally I still have a problem with it. It may not be as bad, but it ain't good either. If you don't have a problem with bagwell and andro ... that's ok. If all you care about is whether it was legal or not, I have no argument against how you choose to point your moral compass. To each his own. We can agree to disagree on subjective moral preferences. The bottomline: I have no interest in comparing Bagwell to bonds. I simply want to address the subject of this thread: Bagwell and his steroid use (my conclusion: he did use a steroid substance). Bagwell vs Bonds is another issue altogether -- one that is (to me) absurd to discuss ... they're not comparable. You can continue that discussion with others.
Morally, you have a problem with his use of Andro. That's how. But, as you say, to each his own. You are correct in that I have mixed your argument with others. My bad. "Steroid" is a charged word nowadays. I hope that you understand that when people hear the word "steroid", they think of the anabolic steroids that Lyle Alzedo used, the IOC outlawed, and that BALCO hid with the "clear" and the "cream". So to say, "Bagwell used steroids" and defend it with a technical definition of commonly used supplement will get a rise out of anybody! Do you not see this? If you have a moral problem with andro use, fine. MLB did, too, and outlawed it. In fact, MLB was the *last* of the major sports organizations to outlaw it. But I will tell you this: I didn't understand what andro was, my friends didn't understand it, and I'll bet you the lion's share of athletes didn't, either. It is NOT in the same class as your typical Lyle Alzedo/Barry Bonds anabolic steroid. Right or wrong, when I enter a discussion about steroids, I (along with I'm guessing a large percentage of average joe's) use the term "steroid" to mean the set of anabolic steroids that has been used illegally by professional players for decades now. The kind that were for horses, right? Hell, cortisone is even a steroid. Was Billy Spiers a cheater? That stuff you inhale for asthma is a steroid, although the name escapes me right now.
I don't get what you're saying here ... how does having a moral problem with someone equate to "incrimination" (as in accusing him of "heinous" criminal activity analogous with Balco). Anyway, I had not declared my moral stance prior to you accusing me of "incriminating" Bagwell. And when I did declare my moral stance, I clearly qualified that Bagwell and Bonds were not comparable (note repeated usage of the word "absurd" regarding my feelings toward that comparison). I fully understand that most people don't view andro with the same scrutiny as Anabolic Steroids ("the full blown" steroids). My purpose was to challenge this view, to educate, and make aware. After all, Andro wasn't banned for no reason. To claim that world class professional athletes (with millions of dollars riding on their day to day health) had no clue what they put in their bodies seems a bit naive to me. Bagwell has on many occasions commented on his usage of the supplement creatine, describing how he had to make a conscious effort to hydrate to avoid kidney problems - he must have done some research on it, maybe even consulted a health professional before using it. Considering Andro was legal, it is actually more likely that he would've sought professional advice before using it (no reason to hide). So I'm guessing he knew what it was (if not a steroid, at least he probably thought it acted like a steroid). The key difference that you're overlooking is that Andro was used as a performance enhancing substance. Andro was banned as a performance enhancing substance. Andro, therefore, is recognized as a performance enhancing substance. So if Bagwell took it, he took a performance enhancing steroid.
Then throw all the bastards out. They're all cheaters. Excercise is performance-enhancing. Yeah, I know; that's not artificial. How about uppers? You got a problem with that? Or do you only have a problem with steroid-like substances that get banned ex post facto? Thanks, I feel edjumucated. And, Bagwell's not a cheater.
